Legislature(1993 - 1994)
10/04/1993 09:00 AM House TAA
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE TASK FORCE ON ALCOHOL
AND ALCOHOL ABUSE
Fairbanks, Alaska
October 4, 1993
9:00 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Brian Porter, Chairman
Representative Eldon Mulder
Representative Joe Sitton
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Richard Foster
Representative Jim Nordlund
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Representative Jeannette James
Representative Tom Brice
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Public testimony on alcohol abuse.
WITNESS REGISTER
DR. KEN STANFIELD
3456 Arnold St.
Ketchikan, AK 99901
Barbara (B.J.) STALEY
3550 Airport Way
Fairbanks, AK 99709
LOREN JONES, Director
Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110607
Juneau, AK 99801
WILLARD JACKSON
2415 Hemlock #1005
Ketchikan, AK 99901
FRANK GOLD, Director
Alaska Center for Responsible Alcohol Control
3098 Airport Way
Fairbanks, AK 99709
JOANN DUCHARME
5th Floor, Gruening Hall
University of Alaska Fairbanks
Fairbanks, AK 99775
SUSAN PICKEREL
429 Deermount
Ketchikan, AK 99901
DAVID SAM
Rural Alaska Health Education Center (RAHEC)
118 Red Building, UAF
Fairbanks, AK 99775
CLAUDIA BOYD
P.O. Box 5532
Ketchikan, AK 99901
GUY PATTERSON
P. O. Box 854
Fairbanks, AK 99701
RON SMITH
UAF Health Center
UAF Campus
Fairbanks, AK 99775
BILL CONNOR
UAF Health Center
UAF Center for Health & Counseling
Fairbanks, AK 99775
DOLORES McADA
P. O. Box 10524
Fairbanks, AK 99710
LARRY HACKENMILLER
2712 Jessie St.
Fairbanks, AK 99712
JOHN REGITANO, Executive Director
Fairbanks Native Association
2826 Totem Dr.
Fairbanks, AK 99709
BANARSI LAL
4532 Dartmouth
Fairbanks, AK 99709
LARRY CAGNINA
1457 Gillam Way
Fairbanks, AK 99701
MICHAEL DAKU
P.O. Box 83684
Fairbanks, AK 99707
KATHLEEN DOVE
Cultural Heritage and Education Institute
P.O. Box 73030
Fairbanks, AK 99707
DARLENE BROWN
P.O. Box 716
Fairbanks, AK 99707
JOHN BAERCSCHY
2175 Yankovich
Fairbanks, AK 99701
HUGH DOOGAN
359 Slater St.
Fairbanks, AK 99701
LINDA ADAMS
2417 Tongass Ave.
Ketchikan, AK 99901
KARLIN ITCHOAK
ASUAF Wood Center
UAF Campus
Fairbanks, AK 99775
(The following minutes were transcribed by Paralegal Plus in
Anchorage.)
LEGISLATIVE TELECONFERENCE
H. TASK FORCE ON ALCOHOL & ALCOHOL ABUSE
REGIONAL MEETING
FAIRBANKS, ALASKA
PUBLIC HEARING ON ALCOHOL ABUSE
OCTOBER 4, 1993
9:00 A.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER
REPRESENTATIVE SITTON
REPRESENTATIVE MULDER
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE
Tape I, Side A
0003
(On Record -- 9:13 a.m.)
PUBLIC HEARING
(Transcriber's Note: Tape I, Sides A & B are completely
indiscernible -- bad tape).
44.00
(Tape change)
(Tape II, Side A)
0012
DR. STANFIELD (PH): I want to focus on what Frank just
had to say because being third generation Native American
alcoholic I don't understand much of what the gentleman just
had to say.
But being in recovery and also being the director of
the alcohol or substance abuse division here at Gateway
Center in Ketchikan, as you know, Dr. (indiscernible)
testified earlier that we provide a lot of services for
alcohol abuse and addiction to not only the individuals, but
to their families here in town.
I want to limit my remarks to four specific areas that
I think she also expounded on -- just to reiterate to you,
Mr. Porter, and the committee the importance of some items
that are coming up here in our area.
One of those that of the involuntary commitments in the
treatment of alcoholism debrief -- you know, they don't
work. The processes that we have right now are cumbersome.
And they basically have no purpose once they're done.
Because we have a social program here and they can walk out
whenever they choose to do so.
In many states the process for evaluation for a
recommendation for involuntary treatment for alcoholism is
parallel to the laws governing the involuntary treatment for
mental health issues or illnesses. The statutes are now --
the mental health statutes are being misused and to detain
and assess people who basically have a problem of
alcoholism. There should be some separateness there.
Through this process they do not get the treatment that
they need really. And that is the treatment for their
addiction. The disease of addiction that we really should
be talking about here today. And whether it be pills or
alcohol or grass or whatever, they may use that day to get
through that day, there's something a lot of us who are in
recovery use when we couldn't get something else we used it.
We see a lot of youngsters now dipping anchor chips in the
gasoline barrels at the villages to sniff and do that,
because that's what they can get. And (indiscernible) abuse
is such a terrible issue. And, I know you gentleman and
folks have heard about that before.
I'd also like to talk about a second issue related to
the purse, which is adequate commitment statutes. There is
no place to be committed to treatment involuntarily. API,
which is the psychiatric treatment facility as you know, not
a substance abuse treatment facility. You know, that needs
to be made real clear. I'm sure you understand that. It is
an inappropriate place to send people who are substance
abusers.
A third area that I would like to comment on is about
the absence of programs for gender's specific treatment, ie
women. I'm just new in the state coming up from Washington
where we have gender specific treatment facilities, such as
Residence 12 for women only. And these residencies and
treatment facilities for these women have very profound
effects and are very helpful in their recovery. And I think
we need to look at that as a possibility and a way of means
of increasing our ability to treat this disease.
The programs, let's face it, have focused on men. We
see a lot of women now that are coming to grips with the
fact that they, too, have the disease of addiction.
The fourth thing I'd like to comment on is the
Ombudsmen's report for grant funded alcohol programs. Well,
it's quite true that there is little or no hard evidence
that programs are efficient or effective. The implication
that this situation is an admission, that it's easily fixed
or that there are easy answers to these questions are
glaringly erroneous.
As Dr. (indiscernible) I've worked for a number of
years in the field of program evaluation in the Lower 48 and
around. Measurement is fairly easy. The difficult parts
are reaching any agreement on what satisfactory outcomes
are. And to measure them and how to understand with an
acceptable degree of accuracy, you know, which ones and how
to interpret the data that's gathered. They cannot be
achieved without an investment of resources.
At this time the federal government requires 50% as you
know of any grant we set aside for outcome research for
grant funded programs.
And so I want to conclude, I guess, with four things in
a postscript, if I might. If I might make these
recommendations to the committee is that one, we revise the
commitment statutes as we look at separating the commitment
of the mentally ill and the addicted individual --
(indiscernible) develop regional facilities for substance
abusers who are so far into the disease that they are
greatly disabled. And being a specialist in traumatic brain
injury, both closed and open and alcohol affects the brain,
it kills brain cells and once one of those cells die they do
not regenerate, they do not recuperate, they are dead. And
that's just a fact.
And some of these folks who have drank for such a long
time or have drank maybe not for a long time, but very hard
and used other drugs to have definitely effected their
cognitive skills and abilities and so we need to focus on
that.
Number three, we need to recognize a needed plan for
adequate treatment for programs for women and other, you
know, specific populations.
Four, we need to fund specific pilot evaluation
programs rather than collect a room full of data. I think
as Dr. (indiscernible) said in her presentation to you that
is interpretable either because the volume or because of the
unreliability and quality of the data. And I think before
you --just for your information, having just come up here in
the last six months from Washington, they have an ADIS or an
Alcohol Driver's Information School, if you will, that after
your first DWI you're required to attend or after your first
alcohol related arrest and of these individuals that do go
to that 95% of those in the 18 months that I worked as
Clinical Supervisor for Northwest Alternatives, in which we
saw 300 of these people, 95% of them returned for a second
conviction on DWI and entered our two year inpatient -- not
inpatient, but intensive out-patient program. Some of which
went to inpatient because they had progressed with the
disease so far that they needed that time.
And so, I know that's another state and those are other
statistics, but, you know, after listening to some of the
other things and other testimony I just felt it was
important to know that as we take a look at outcome studies
from those 95% who came back after their 2nd DWI, 50% of
those people who successfully completed their two treatment
program and intensive out-patient went to the inpatient
portion and then an aftercare or a continued care program
following that up, that lasted maybe anywhere from a year to
18 months.
You know, we saw those individuals having greater
success and this included a lot of different types of
treatment plans that were specific to the individual.
And so, I thank you for your time in allowing me to
speak to you today.
REP. PORTER: Thank you, Dr. Stanfield (ph). That 95%
statistic is amazing.
DR. STANFIELD: Yes, sir.
REP. PORTER: It's amazing to me that 95% of them
stayed in (indiscernible).
But in any event I would suggest, if you haven't
already, confer with Dr. (indiscernible). She and Senator
Taylor's staff are taking a look at a redo of the
involuntary commitment statute and his staff is also working
on getting a statute that would overcome the
(indiscernible).
Again, thank you, very much for your testimony.
DR. STANFIELD (ph): Yes, sir, I am aware of that and
am involved in it. As Chair of the mayor's task force here
in town, definitely I'm involved with Senator Taylor's
office and the folks involved in those issues.
REP. PORTER: Well, great. It would be helpful, I
think, to have many voices with your experience backgrounds
involved in that process.
If we could then return to Fairbanks and I'll ask if
B.J. Staley has....?
BARBARA STALEY: I'm Barbara Staley. What do I do with
the mic here?
REP. PORTER: Push that little switch forward and
you're on.
MS. STALEY: I'm Barbara Staley, the program director
for the Alaska Center for Alcohol Control, for eight years.
I now have my own business called Alternatives doing this
same thing.
Dr. Gold called me and I was dubious about his proposal
because I was just like everybody else. I was brainwashed
with alcoholic -- either you are or you aren't -- syndrome.
And having been a fairly good Fairbanks drinker and have
moderated my habits after I woke up one morning and said, I
don't like me too much anymore, I became a very moderate
drinker.
Dr. Gold called me and said I've got something I want
you to look at. And so I did. And first and foremost I am
a social scientist. I'm also a social psychologist in
graduate training.
One of the first things I'm going to look at when I
look at any study, any piece of literature that presented as
a empirical study. I look for definitions.
The things that I was working with, the research that
was presented to me by Dr. Gold, all of those articles had
definitions. I've been working in this field for eight
years. I have yet to go to one meeting anywhere with anyone
in the field that anybody ever presented a definition for
what are we treating.
We have sent that information that comes out in the
National Institute of Medicine, the (Indiscernible) Aid,
National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse and you
notice they had the characteristics in their title. I went
over to a meeting over at the hospital just last week. We
have had people working for months to formulate goals and
objectives. No definitions for alcoholism. How did we
define it? How did we treat it?
Sure. We're not making any headway in this state. On
page 22 of the Ombudsmen report you will find that Loren
acknowledges the fact that the only programs that are
certified in the State of Alaska are medical disease model
programs. Medical disease model programs are quite
appropriate for, one, people who have a deep spiritual
belief, and number two, people who are honestly addicted to
the chemical and need that kind of support. It works.
Nobody's saying that it doesn't.
But what we are saying here is let's define what we're
going after. Contrary to popular opinion most -- and Dr.
Gold got to talk to you about justice. The crime file
article that we have. I don't know if you have that or not,
which simply states that only about 5% of the people that
law enforcement has to deal with are alcoholics. What do we
do with the other population? 40 to 50% of the American
population who may be considered problem drinkers.
85% of the American population drinks. 40% of those
people may at one time in their life or the other be
considered a problem drinker. Does it mean that they are an
alcoholic? No, it does not. It means society teaches us to
drink in the response to social cues, it does not teach us
how to teach. The chemical is just that and people
constantly overdose from the chemical. It's that simple.
I finally left Keela, I'll be quite honest with you. I
finally left Keela. Because it has been a completely losing
battle over 8 years. So much of my energy went into
collecting research to try to reach just one person.
Then we show up at meetings like this. We have asked
the Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse time and time
again to please provide people who are in the position to
make policy, please provide them with (indiscernible) the
base of treatment. Please provide them with the
(indiscernible) report to Congress. Please provide them
with the research, the empirical research. Not methodology.
Not conditional wisdom, but empirical research, based in
science with verified (indiscernible).
Neither one of you have that here. Frank Gold has
spent more money than you poke a stick at making copies of
huge documents, the center, the commission, to dole out to
the Commissioner, to you folks, yet you never seem to have
it. Does either one of you have the Altan Study done here
in 1972?
I just heard Mr. Jones say there was only one study
done in this state. Do either of you have access to the
Altan Study? I see surprise on your face. What is the
Altan Study?
The Altan Study is a study commissioned by the Division
of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse paid for with big dollars who
came up with some conclusions that they didn't want to hear.
Now, I'm just being honest. Because, believe me, folks, I
don't depend on the government for money. I'm just a
treatment provider and now I happen to be a private
provider. Okay?
My program pays for itself and I teach people
responsible drinking. And that is what I've been doing for
his program all these years.
But, I want to ask you people, and I'm disturbed as I
said, I'm a social scientist. When you say something to me
and -- I didn't even have to become a social scientist. I
was born asking why and how. And that's just the way my
mind works. But evidently there's not a lot of people who
work in this field who put together the policies and then
hand them over to the bureaucrats to make their own
definitions.
Please, before you attack this problem, please define
what you're going after. I hear a lot of talk about the
villages. And I know that their problems are unique. But,
I worked with Alaska Natives and I (indiscernible) the myth
of the drunken Indian. If you take 125 pound white male and
125 pound Native male and they both drink exactly the same
amount of alcohol, they are both going to have the same damn
blood alcohol (indiscernible).
You take a man white who goes north. Is there any
difference in the white man who goes north and works for six
weeks and doesn't drink a drop and then comes back into town
on R&R and stays drunk for two weeks? Is this any different
from the villager who goes back to his home, doesn't drink a
drop for months, comes into town and binges?
Hey, we taught these folks how to drink. We're good
Northern European extraction people. What is the name of
North European extraction? Drink as much as you can when
you can and fall down and puke. And it's just that simple.
Okay?
We taught American Native people how to drink, but we
left out a part. We left out the part that says that when a
Caucasian is out on their job, they do not drink. But when
we come into your village we gonna take the top off the
bottle and throw it away and we're gonna drink until we fall
down and puke, again. This is how our American Native
people were taught to drink.
The same thing -- you asked, why has nothing changed?
Because in this entire country, the entire field is
overwhelmed with recovering alcoholics.
Now, I have total respect for people who are in
recovery. I have a lot of respect for AA. I send clients
to AA. By the way, I've been in Chapter of (indiscernible)
recovery, which is the opposite side of the coin for me
although, it follows the same rules.
You asked why nothing's working? It's because the
entire 40 to 50 years the medical disease model has been
assumed to be the honest to God's truth and nobody ever
bothered to investigate. To be quite honest with you,
medicine backed out of it. Treating addictive behavior's is
one of the hardest things in the world to do.
Dr. Gold wasn't lying when he says that we put a shot
of Jack Daniels in our mouth even though it taste like --
and you can fill in the word, and that's why we shoot it.
Okay? People don't drink it because it taste that bad.
They drink it because the human animal has a craving for
pleasure and immediate gratification.
Until we get beyond this simplistic explanation if you
are an alcoholic you do just exactly this or otherwise
you're going to die an alcoholic and get back to the point
that we can look at the spectrum of drinkers, begin to
intervene, that's when they get that first DWI.
And I'm rather surprised. Dr. Stanfield, with all due
respect, sir, would you please contact Dr. Allen G. Marleft
(ph), at the University of Washington in Seattle. He has
some research you might be interested in.
What is our mission? What is our mission. Define the
mission. I like this (indiscernible) year of 2000 we're
going to have prohibition in the State of Alaska, maybe.
Well, (indiscernible) up here because they're bootleggers
back home and they sure come up here and make more money
bootlegging. Okay?
Prohibition doesn't work. Teaching people that they're
powerless and helpless does not work for the vast majority
of people. Because the vast majority of people are not
addicted to the chemical. And when talking to a non-addict,
you're talking to a different animal.
Now, we throw AA programs into the jail and this is
going to fix our people. If you don't even believe in God
or that what you're doing is wrong, you just got caught. Is
it going to do you a whole lot of good to say I'm helpless
and I've got to turn it over to God?
This is a religious program, folks. And those that it
works for, fine. And I'm a religious woman. Deep beliefs.
We've got to start differentiating between clients' needs.
And the only way that you can do that is number one,
multidimensional evaluation. Not a 15 or 20 minute check
off.
Have you ever had a blackout? I bet either one of you
at this table and in this audience cringe when I say that
word. What's a blackout? Well, yeah, I've had nights that
I couldn't remember everything I did. Is that a blackout?
Well, you're damn straight it is. (Indiscernible).
Have you ever had a hangover? Naw. No. Have you ever
had a drink in the morning? No. Not this good audience.
Things like that is too simplistic. Number one, and these
are my positive suggestions, define the problem, the
different types of drinkers. That includes cultural
environment, across the spectrum, severity and quantities
and frequency of the use. (Indiscernible) and for God sakes
look for underlined psychological problems.
Depressed people are one of the first people in the
world to grab alcohol, let me tell you. Because you'll do
anything to change.
All I have to say is, number one, define the problem,
differentiate between your client populations and provide a
variety of treatments so that we may match clients to
appropriate treatment. And this is coming straight out of
the powers that be that control the purse strings.
Let's face it. All this boils down to is who holds the
purse strings? Not the client that's out there. Not the
client that's out there.
So, those are the three things that I would advise you
to do and I would ask you before you make any decisions or
propose any legislation that you obtain, which we have asked
Mr. Jones to do over and over and over is to write all of
you. The commission. The commissioner. The Altan Report
done in 1982 in this state. A-L-T-A-N.
You can't even find a copy of it anymore, I will tell
you that.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We've got a copy here I think.
MS. STALEY: Oh, have you got a copy, Joe.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Of the Kelso.
MS. STALEY: The Kelso Report, yes. Okay, good. It's
called the Altan.
Okay. Outcomes. I don't know what my program does.
We look at our stats and I did do the survey of 50 states.
Nobody uses (indiscernible) anymore. Because it's obvious
to everybody that in depth most conventional evaluation
(indiscernible). We don't know why we're (indiscernible) as
well as we are with our people, because we're never given
the chance.
Yeah, it takes some money to do some (indiscernible).
I designed outcome oriented instrument which we've been
presenting to the state as far as our proposal that not only
follows the client six months, it follows the client for 36
months and is easily computerized and easy to use.
I have nothing further to say unless you've got
questions you want to ask me. And I'll tell you straight
out.
REP. PORTER: Ms. Spatey, thank you very much.
(Indiscernible).
MS. STALEY: Oh, you've got that right.
REP. PORTER: Representative Mulder.
REP. MULDER: Thank you, BJ. I've enjoyed your
testimony. Let me ask you your question back. Define the
problem.
MS. STALEY: Define the problem. Irresponsible use of
a legal substance. Irresponsible use of a legal substance.
Now we're into the area of you, you and you. You drink one
way, he drinks another and he drinks another. And, I'm
sorry, I don't mean to impugn you if you don't have a drink
occasionally.
You drink for one reason, he drinks for one reason, he
drinks for one reason. You're one size, he's one size, he's
one size. Joe tried to drink with you and you were drinking
drink for drink. Joe would be the one to go to jail, do not
pass Go. Point 1-0 -- limit is arbitrary and it really
doesn't mean a whole lot depending on tolerance.
My suggestion is that you get (indiscernible) the base
of treatment at least in the 7th Annual Report to Congress
and your definitions for the different types of drinkers.
Like (indiscernible)... I walked out of the meeting last
week and I realized that all these people had been working
all of these months coming up with all of these issues and
goals and objectives without a clear definition.
REP. MULDER: What would you consider to be a
traditional definition today?
MS. STALEY: Alcoholic. Now, you define that for me.
REP. MULDER: How would you determine they define it
today?
MS. STALEY: Number one, I do not use it. It is either
alcohol abuse, misuse, abuse or chemical addiction. And all
of us are addicted to a variety of chemicals. Alcohol
happens to be one that no, you're not born an alcoholic.
But, if you drink long enough, steady enough, and hard
enough you will become addicted to that chemical, just as
we're addicted to coffee that we're drinking.
REP. PORTER: Being a social scientist, BJ, what does
your empirical study -- and I'm sure you've evaluated your
own program.....
MS. STALEY: No, I cannot call it empirical study,
because in order to do empirical study, number one, you've
got to have a control group.
REP. MULDER: I understand.
MS. STALEY: And you've gotta have a staff.
REP. MULDER: Right.
MS. STALEY: Okay. In order to do (indiscernible) base
study you've got to have a little bit of money to do that.
I'd love to do it.
REP. MULDER: Have you evaluated your own program in
relation to (indiscernible)?
MS. STALEY: Oh, absolutely.
REP. MULDER: What is your.....
MS. STALEY: Less than 1%.
REP. MULDER: For first timers?
MS. STALEY: I don't know why.
REP. MULDER: Well, certainly while you don't have a
control group, you certainly have a contrast or compare
group in the sense of the program that's currently being
administered by the State.
MS. STALEY: And from what we can understand to the
best of our ability from the document that is published by
the alcohol safety action program, Mrs. McKenzie in
Anchorage, drawing from the data that she presents, to the
best of our ability it looks like the State has a
(indiscernible) all 50%, 47 to 50% rate for first time
addictors.
REP. MULDER: (Indiscernible) -- do you have any
estimation of what your numbers are for first time?
MR. JONES: No, we do not and we do not publish
(indiscernible)....
REP. MULDER: Have you done any research in relation to
(indiscernible).....
MR. JONES: The last research that was done was in '82
or '83, two years of study. Currently there is a
replication of that study going on now and we hope to have
those results by January.
REP. MULDER: The answer to the question is that there
isn't any current data (indiscernible)... being updated.
Somebody else probably has question, I should take all
the time.
REP. PORTER: I have a question that I would like to
pose. I'd like an answer now if you'd be so kind. I think
maybe your answer might be a little bit lengthy and we do
have other people we want to get to here.
But, at some point in time before the end of the day,
it seems to me that maybe I'm jumping way ahead, but
(indiscernible) what's the adverse response to this
question. So, I'm saying to myself what's the adverse
response to, if it is that we should teach people how to get
in trouble with alcohol (indiscernible).... how do we
overcome (indiscernible)?
Don't answer now, but I will be asking later.
Thank you, very much.
MS. STALEY: Thank you.
REP. PORTER: If we can now we'll go back to Ketchikan
and see if Will Jackson (ph) is there?
WILL JACKSON: Yes. I'm Will Jackson and I've been in
recovery for three years doing my (indiscernible). I have
to go to a 20-day program over up (indiscernible) I'm 45
years old. And I drink and drug for (indiscernible).... To
get back to the treatment center, they sobered me up.
That's all they could do. (Indiscernible) how to live one
day at a time and that's what I'm doing right now. I'm
Alaska Native and you couldn't get me to say that three
years ago. I live entirely in my traditions today. I
couldn't do that three years ago. (Indiscernible).
Someone was talking earlier back about the villages and
the family -- that's what it took for me to get where I'm at
today. (Indiscernible) -- Ketchikan. I'm vice president of
the (Indiscernible) Health Board. I'm secretary to
(Indiscernible) school board. I didn't have any of them
titles three years. I was a fallen down alcoholic drunk --
I was unfit to walk the streets. I decided (indiscernible)
and in doing that I was sent to a treatment center.
And like I said a moment ago, what they told me there
was they taught me how to sober up. And coming back --
(indiscernible) program as I understand them (indiscernible)
and I'd do it today. I take it out in the streets, I preach
it to the kids every Friday night and I truly do have my
freewill.
By going to jail -- that's where I came out. I was 25
years in and out, probation. I haven't been in jail in
three years because I chose to work a program of recovery.
Alcohol is a disease and it's an addiction. And in order to
work that program I have to go in and out those swinging
doors -- a revolving door. I have to go in and out of those
daily. I have to be an example to my children, which I have
four of them. Three in recovery.
I came from a very dysfunctional family of 14 and in
that family there's (indiscernible)....
I'm very comfortable where I'm at today in the recovery
program. (Indiscernible)..... revolving door.
I look at the villages that I go to and I say, why?
Why is this happening to my people? And what I see is, I
see grief, abuse and use as our generation is accused.....
(Indiscernible) alcohol and drugs was killing me and
was killing my family.
I'm very pleased to be here just to share my testimony
with you. Thank you very much.
REP. PORTER: I want to thank you, very much. I
appreciate you very much for coming to this hearing and also
thank you very much for your choice now. Your story is not,
as you are well aware, unusual. The one that we're hearing
is (indiscernible) task force.
Let me ask you a question that I asked a couple of
other people that had similar experiences. The thing that
mentioned, I think, was that one of the situations that you
experienced was a lost of (indiscernible) values and culture
and self-esteem. We have heard that before and it seems
like there's an awful lot of work in the Native communities
to try to rebuild those things.
With that in mind, was the alcohol problem that you had
a symptom of those problems or the problem because of the
loss of those things?
MR. JACKSON: Because of the loss of my values was
(indiscernible).... everyday I look at life
(indiscernible)... My father -- we came up in a family of
14. There were five of us with my Dad. At the end of our
last 17 years of living with him, lifestyle with my Dad was
(indiscernible) and I practice it daily in my home with my
children. I have a daughter that's 16 and a son that just
turned 15. My 15 year old son has been dancing in a group
for ten years and when I walked back into my culture three
years ago she was one of my teachers. I was raised and born
in the Ketchikan area. And many times and many trips I made
to the village where my grandmother lives I was taught
tradition daily, daily. Tradition was taught by my mother
daily.
When I was in that treatment center for 28 days my
mother and my brothers came in in Washington and once they
came in for the healing process and (indiscernible) my
family came in to dance and sing for me. And when they did
that, you know, I told my mother at that time, you know, I
can't do this. I forgot it. No, you haven't. You haven't
forgot a thing. You're born into it.
So, looking back at that, you know, I look at my two
brothers and when my brother went to the treatment center,
my younger brother's an artist. And when he lived here he
left me with a screen he just made and we put on the screen,
To My Brother Willard. He says, it reminds you of who you
are and where you came from. And one time in my lifetime I
wasn't proud of being an Alaska Native.
I am a Tlingit. My Native name is (indiscernible).
I'm very proud of that name. We dance here in Alaska
(indiscernible) tradition for Alaska Native veterans. The
(indiscernible).... And I'm doing a healing process in
Sitka. (Indiscernible).
I have today my values and those are my traditions and
I'm very grateful for that.
Thank you.
REP. PORTER: I want to thank you, again.
Probably not the only person, but the only person that
has yet told us -- we have someone here in Fairbanks that
needs to get to work and would like to testify.
He had to leave? Oh, I'm sorry.
So, the next person down on the list is Jo Ann -- I'll
mess up the last name, so I'll let her tell us when she gets
here.
JO ANN DUCHARME: My name is Joann Ducharme and I'm the
Director of Rural Student Services at the University of
Alaska and Fairbanks.
What I've just handed you is information sheet that I,
along with some other people who will be speaking,
representing different departments, different units. We sat
down to try and put some of these figures, numbers on paper.
My purpose for being here today is to draw attention to
something that I think is very critical at the university.
My concern for being here is as a UAF -- someone who has
worked in many capacities at the University of Alaska
Fairbanks from a student employee to my current position as
director that I've held since last year.
Because I represent Rural Student Services I would like
to emphasize I am not drawing attention to the fact that I
believe this is a Native or rural problem, but that it's a
university wide concern.
The statistics -- the numbers I've given you here, the
first little box I failed to include. These were statistics
that were given to me by the admissions and records office
and they represent this Fall of 1993.
The 4,334 students are UAF full time students that
utilize services on the campus. That does not include any
of the branch campuses. Of that 4,000 number, 1450 live in
the dormitories on campus. 85% of the university students
are Alaska residents.
The next number is the year there is in error. 1991 to
1992. I have teamed these numbers from the director of
Residents Halls at the University of Alaska. He told me
that of 270 incident reports at the university from the
dormitories are residents. 250 of those involved alcohol.
These are the only ones that were reported.
We emphasize that there were many incidents that
happened within the resident's halls that are not reported
or taken care of either (indiscernible)....
(Tape dragging)
The next little box there underneath the minor
consuming arrests, all of this information was obtained from
the university campus security. In the position that I hold
and the department that I work with, because we are very
student oriented I work with a number of departments have
direct access to these numbers that they are public
information. And because we are in contact with so many
students that's another reason for my concern, because I
hear of many of these concerns coming from different
departments.
This year 1992 to 1993......
4438
(Tape Change)
(Tape II, Side B)
0550
.....is in comparison to the '91/92 year. There were
59 minor consuming arrest. So, you can see in the span of
one year there's been a double -- increase of twice as many
arrests for minor consuming in one academic year.
In '91 and '92 academic year there were 16 alcohol
arrests. The '92 and '93 years (indiscernible).
I do have other figures from the campus security, but I
didn't put those down. One of the other figures were the
sexual assault figures that were directly related to alcohol
consumption or alcohol related incidents on campus.
The box in the upper right hand corner was our attempt
to -- and there are other people here that will address this
position directly. We tried to indicate what the university
as to address these concerns.
Currently there is one 3/4 physician that is directly
hired to address these issues. That is to serve -- he might
have some more clarification on this, but my assumption is
that he serves the 4,334 students that are full time. And
I'm thinking that probably more that are part-time students
in this number, also.
There are, of course, there's the Center for Health
(ph) and Counseling and I'm sure Dr. O'Connor (ph) will be
speaking and my department Rural Student Services. But, I
would like to emphasize, again, that we are two departments
where our primary functions are not to deal directly with
students and these concerns related to alcohol and drug
abuse.
The University Hall Staff, Resident Hall Staff, have
held over the past year voluntary tenants programs within
the dorms to address concerns such as alcohol and drug
abuse. The emphasis there is that these programs are
voluntary and they are not mandatory. They're held on
campus. And as I'm talking about on campus I'm not meaning
to exclude the students who reside off campus, because this,
as I said, is a university wide concern.
This information we thought was important to let you
know that we -- I have not presented this, but I know some
more information has been presented to the university's
board of (indiscernible) in the past years, 1988 and 1990,
and there was also a grant proposal submitted by the Center
for Health and Counseling in 1991 and '92. And recently
given testimony to the State Advisory Board for Alcohol and
Drug Abuse just last week end.
Some of the suggested solutions that we were thinking
possible that the hall staff, because we are a very large
residential campus, if they were to have increased alcohol,
drug prevention training program they would hopefully be
able to bring this information to a large population of the
students (indiscernible). And information travels very
quickly.
Hopefully there will be someday increase funding to
hire more positions other than the one 3/4 time position
that is currently on staff at the university to concern
themselves with these kinds of issues.
And finally some kind of financial assistance for off
campus student referrals. I believe one of the major steps
that the university has made is in recognizing and
acknowledging that there is a serious alcohol and drug
problem on campus. The problem is that we realize many of
the students that we see they need treatment of some kind.
For many of the students, they have no insurance or
very limited insurance and so they need to go to an off
campus treatment program, such as the one the
(indiscernible) Native Association offers.
Small things such as getting there on the bus. But it
might be hard to believe, but there are some students who in
getting bus tokens and getting there on the bus really poses
a problem. Their finances just don't include that kind of
thing. Even if they do receive free treatment.
So, those were some suggested solutions and I'm sure
that the other people from the university will have much
more details than this. But, as I said, my concern stems
from the great numbers -- the increase in the past year and
the limited resources that the university has to address
these problems.
Questions.
REP. PORTER: Thank you very much. Do you have any
hypothesis of your own why these alcohol problems
(indiscernible)?
(Pause).
Sometimes reporting gets better, is that perhaps a.....
MS. DUCHARME: Reporting and I think the university's
awareness... As I've said, I think the university now is
acknowledging, perhaps not publicly, but to some extent the
hard fact that these problems do exist. (Indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: Before I go any further, please let me
apologize for not recognizing Representative Jeannette James
joining us at the tables. Welcome.
REP. MULDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You indicated during testimony that there is a sizable
problem on campus. And a number of students need help.
In your estimation, what's the scope of the problem?
And I (indiscernible) with respect to their own background.
I came from a community where there was zero tolerance when
you were growing up and a lot of us kids went out to school
(indiscernible). You know. And you went to school, you
sowed your wild oats and you really didn't know your bounds
or your limits and you had none. You had no parents.
What is the problem in putting that back to this
problem here of a lot of students coming in from rural
Alaska to a big town? No perimeters, no parents, minimal
number of authority figures. What's the scope of the
problem? How many of these kids have a serious drinking
problem, how many of these kids have a problem with knowing
how much is too much and knowing what to say when?
MS. DUCHARME: I think there is someone here that can
relay some of that information in the survey that was done
on the campus a few years ago.
The other -- one of the other things that I wish we had
access to was to more of a comprehensive screening program.
But because we don't have the financial resources to do any
type of in depth screening or the personnel to do it, the
extent to where the students are coming to us from, not just
only Alaska, but the different parts throughout the United
States I have no idea what their drinking habits are.
What I do know is that, as the arrest records show at
the university, arrests have more than doubled on campus.
And again, I don't know if that's attributed to better
reporting methods or just actually seeing an increase.
REP. MULDER: What type of screening program do you
utilize at UAF?
MS. DUCHARME: I'm not involved with any type of
screening program. The department that I work with is Rural
Student Services. And we are part of student services
within the university and our primary function is to offer
academic and personal counseling, which includes referrals
for Alaska Native students and rural students coming to the
university.
I think that the staff that's here from the Center for
Health and Counseling can better address that issue.
REP. MULDER: Your point is a very good one. What I'm
trying to identify (indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: Thank you, very much.
MS. DUCHARME: Thank you.
REP. PORTER: I'd like to go back to Ketchikan where we
had at least two of you (indiscernible) testified.
Is susan Pickerel ready to testify?
SUSAN PICKEREL: Yes, I'm here. My name is Susan
Pickerel and I am the (indiscernible) Alcohol Program
Coordinator for Ketchikan Indian Corporation. I am also a
member of ARNADAP (ph), which is the Alaska Rural Native
Alcohol and Drug Abuse Program.
I am the counselor for the (indiscernible) program and
we have an adult counselor. Our funding comes through the
Indian Health Service.
And the reason for my testimony today is two-fold. As
an Alaska Native I guess I'd like to have some input on what
is currently being done and what I think needs to be done
for the future for the Native people of Alaska.
And I recognize that the problem just doesn't involve
Native people, but I think looking at the annual report from
the Department of Health and Social Services where the
statistics were suicide, infant mortality, fetal alcohol
syndrome, alcoholism, shooting. All of those relating to
the high statistics sometimes even number one in the nation
for Alaska Natives and the problems that are there.
I feel like my input today is going to be addressing a
problem for Alaska Natives.
Unlike Mr. Gold's associates, I am not a recovering
alcoholic. Both my parents were alcoholics and I came from
an alcoholic family. The (indiscernible) six kids, four of
us are not practicing alcoholics. I've never been drunk.
Two of my brothers are alcoholics.
But, I think the saving grace more than anything else
was that my parents recognized the importance of education
for their children as Natives. They moved away from
(indiscernible) from a small village because they felt it
was important that in order to get ahead education came
first and they wanted to raise their children as a family as
opposed to the normal model which was sending your children
to boarding school up at Sitka or now to Oregon.
I am real grateful for that. And even though my
parents were alcoholics that didn't happen until later on in
my teenage years. So, in my formative years they were hard
working people who provided well for their family. And I
think that was the positive role model that I saw that
helped me.
I think what disturbs me today about the testimony
given by Mr. Gold and his associates was in regard to Alaska
Natives. Mr. Gold made reference to drunken (indiscernible)
in Kotzebue and he didn't happen to see it. Well, if Mr.
Gold -- when I was growing up my parents didn't go out and
stumble down on the streets, but there was alcoholism in our
home and I think if you would look at the number of people
who have alcoholism in the family, the majority of the
people are not drinking out on the streets and yet it
affects generationally many, many, people.
And so I guess my response to that was that there
aren't accurate statistics and there won't be. And the
programs that are now being run by the State as well as from
nonprofit organizations and other people, are necessary and
vital. We can't give up on it and I don't believe that we
should go into programs such as Mr. Gold is promoting with
responsible use.
I think that would set us back 50 years. The Alaska
Native has been drinking for 50 to 60 years and I think, you
know, just based on that time period, it's going to take a
long time before we can begin as a people on that road to
recovery.
My father who is 80 died last year and was an alcoholic
and the last ten years of his life he no longer drank. But
when I was asking him as to why he felt there was a problem,
he said that when he was growing up there were no positive
role models for him. The people that he saw were white
people who were drinking and other people his own age that
were drinking and that was the way you proved your manhood,
was to go out and get drunk.
And, so he said what he felt was the real important and
the most for Native people was the education, making
something of yourself, being a positive role model for other
people, which is culturally (indiscernible). And I think
for Alaska Natives that's what's going to be the difference.
And for myself, I'm 36 years old and in the last five
years I have rediscovered my culture. I think I lived it in
the common sense, tradition of hard work, you know, being
proud of who you are, being proud that you were Native,
honesty. All of those things that are basically common
sense and I don't necessarily think it's Native specifics,
but those helped me. But more than anything, rediscovering
my culture with the subsistence issue and the art and
finding out how we live, how we survive and being proud of
who I am. That has helped me the most and helped me want to
give back to the other generation that's coming up.
Today I would like to talk about some suggestions that
I have. How we can help Alaska Native's specifically with
regard to alcohol and some other substance abuse.
I think Native specific culture in a specific program
are going to help. And I say that for two reasons. One, I
think that the Alaska Natives can become involved in
programs like that. Like myself. I have a real heart for
helping Native people, because I am Native. It's not just
something that I collected data for. It means something to
me. I want to see the Native people be healthy and not to
have alcoholism as a part of their tradition. I want to
change that.
And for a lot of people today I think alcoholism is a
tradition in a family. Whether it's behavior, whether we're
talking about addictions or alcoholism, it's there and it's
a problem and I want to change that.
So, I think the culture and specific programs will be
more effective.
And I also think that the other programs that are --
you know, with the treatment programs that's necessary, too.
You have to have someone dried out and off the drug before
you can deal with the other issue.
I attended a round up meeting just recently in
Fairbanks and one of the representatives from ANRC (ph), a
Native cultural specific program, said they had been doing
some studies with regard to outcome -- the people that
attended their program and their statistics were
(indiscernible) that they had contacted that had been
through program within the last three years had significant
improvement in the quality of life and with regard to
whether or not -- I'm sorry, (indiscernible).
I guess the other thing that I want to say with regard
to specific programs for Natives I think more prevention
needs to be done. We need to put more money into prevention
because I think we have to start with the other generation.
My generation right now is dealing with the alcoholism.
You heard Mr. Jackson, you'll hear Claudia Boyd (ph)
speaking here from Ketchikan later. We are dealing with the
effects of alcoholism. It's not in our own life and the
effects from our parents.
My children, I'm hoping that my children won't have to
deal with alcohol. In our home. And that's what I think
the prevention will make a big difference.
One of the things that I'm doing in my alcohol program
for the adolescent is culturally specific programs. We put
on a cultural camp once a year. Send kids out to a retreat
setting and for a whole week -- they're emerged in a culture
that's real positive. Some of those kids, even though they
come from Native homes, they've never had that. They've
never experienced fishing. They've never experienced berry
picking or canning or smoking salmon or any of those things.
They've not experienced that and I think that cultural
specific programs, again, are important.
We are also doing a training for parents bringing in
nationally recognized speakers who work with Native families
and training the counselors of those working here and how to
work culturally or specific culturally with Native families
and what is most effective and what (indiscernible).
So, the other thing we're going to be dealing with is a
Native Youth Conference in March or April of this year here
in Ketchikan and our Native youth group with Ketchikan
Indian Corporation and some other kids (indiscernible) as
well, will be participating in that as leaders giving back
to their community what they have learned. Sharing what
they've learned about the culture and helping other kids.
And being a positive Native role model. These are the
things I think are going to work.
And if at all possible, if you're looking at where to
put your money at, it takes (indiscernible) real important
part of that and supporting the treatment programs that are
going on right now. Helping those people get out of that
addiction cycle and working with programs that treat the
whole family, not just the individual who's going through
that program.
I appreciate this chance to talk to you. Again, I've
not spoken from a prepared statement, but from my heart, and
I hope that you take that as opposed to all the statistics
and whatnot that's been presented here today at volume.
I think it's important that you listen to the people,
because people is what you're dealing with. You're not
dealing with statistics. You're dealing with people that
are effected and I think people are going to solve this
problem.
Thank you very much.
REP. PORTER: Susan, thank you. Representative Mulder
has a question.
REP. MULDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Susan.
Just in a real quick response, you emphasize
prevention. And it is something that is discussed in length
with the chairman and you'll be hearing much more about the
future program that's going to be running through the
National Guard which Governor Hickel will be outlining.
It's called the Youth Corp and it's an exciting program
that's going to be implemented within our state within the
next year.
And it's going to be taking children who are children
at risk throughout the state who perhaps have fallen through
the cracks and the seams and trying to bring them back into
society and teach them some skills, valuable skills for
life, and also to teach some structure and some order and
discipline. So, we are addressing some of the problems.
I've got to agree with you. That is the greatest hope
for the future. But, you can't just drain the swamp. You
also have to look at the alligators tipping at your behind
right now.
And along those lines, Susan, what program or what
device do you use to employ for your screening within your
program. In other words, how do you screen your
participants and what type of process is it?
MS. PICKEREL: Well, basically it's a screening process
that has been developed in cooperation with Gateway Human
Services as well as -- we don't have an inpatient treatment
program. So, ours is the pre-training process, pre-
treatment process and then we refer to, for instance, if
it's an in treatment program the other portion of that as
well as dealing with the family we try and address this
problem as a whole. Not just necessarily the individual
involved and working with the family.
(Indiscernible). Our adult counselor works with
anywhere between 40 to 50 people at a time, and again that's
the screening process that was developed with Gateway Human
Services.
REP. MULDER: Susan, along those lines, what are the
potential outcomes of the screening? In other words, you
take a person -- and I'm sorry to ask you these questions,
but these are just thoughts that keep going through my mind
the last several weeks (indiscernible) your testimony.
A person comes in off the street. They go through the
screening. What are the potential outcomes that you would
see for that person or that you would recommend?
MS. PICKEREL: I come up with regard to statistics of
how many make it and how many don't.
REP. MULDER: No, no. If a person comes in off the
street what are the potential outcomes of you doing the
screening? What options do you present that person? A, you
do this, B, C, E... whatever?
MS. PICKEREL: Well, because the people that we see are
either tribal members or Alaska Natives that receive
benefits through Ketchikan Indian Corporation. And with the
alcohol program that we have we see them locally if it's
deemed that the person can work, for instance, in a 12 step
program or we also have -- our adult counselor also does the
talking circle. Which is the culturally specific group
setting where he works on a weekly basis with those folks.
Unfortunately, the majority of the people that are seen
in our adult program are from the ASAP (ph) Program,
referrals from the court system. And so, very often there
is a (indiscernible) right there, because they have to go,
they're forced to go through this -- it's a court order.
And so we do see those people time and time again.
I don't have statistics for you with regard to how many
repeated -- centers we have.
REP. MULDER: No, and I really wasn't looking in that
direction, Susan. I'm just trying to gain information as
much as possible, you know, in terms of what the options are
when each person comes in. What and where that person may
go.
Do you have an element of your program, Susan, that
deals with people, adults, who simply have not learned any
type of control? In other words, do you teach responsible
drinking at all?
MS. PICKEREL: No, we don't. By the time, almost
always by the time people come to our agency for help they
are in a crisis or they are referred from the Court System.
And so at that point to teach responsible drinking is just
ludicrous and it's not something that's even an option for
us.
We try and counsel them and if we can't take care of it
in our office then we refer them to Native specific programs
because we felt that that is the one that has had the most
success as far as referrals and success for the person
attending those programs.
But, responsible drinking is just not an option. And I
wouldn't recommend it.
REP. MULDER: So, you would say, Susan, that most of
the people that you have and most -- if I understand
correctly, most of the people you see are court ordered, is
that correct?
MS. PICKEREL: For the adults, that's correct. I would
say probably 70% of them are court ordered. That comes
through the court system.
And even though, you know, they come through the court
system, some of them do not necessarily go and get in
trouble again, but because they've been connected with our
program, if they fall, they'll come back. And they'll come
back into, you know, in to see the counselor, again.
With regard to the youth that's usually, as I say, a
crisis situation where they're in trouble at school, we get
a referral, in fact, I go up to the high school three times
a week. Probably 20% of my time has been up at the high
school trying to be real pro active with the alcohol problem
in getting involved -- gets to a problem where they're not
attending school.
REP. MULDER: Do you, Susan, and I'm sorry to continue
on, but your comments raise more questions in my mind. Do
you try and distinguish between those individuals who are
addicted to alcohol as opposed to those who simply are
abusing alcohol? And is there a distinction in your mind?
MS. PICKEREL: There is a distinction with regard to
the seriousness of their youth. With the screening process
we try and determine for myself I'm speaking, the safety
of the child, what's real imminent, how many times they
used, whether or not they've gone -- they've had blackouts
and all the other things involved. If it's more serious
then I would refer probably to a treatment center or to an
out-patient counseling situation.
Yes, we do try and we do make those distinctions. But,
again, if you're talking about a solution I would not
recommend responsible drinking. Especially, -- as far as
I'm concerned with adolescent there is no responsible
drinking. They shouldn't be drinking until they're 21. And
studies have shown that people shouldn't be drinking until
the age of 23, because their bodies are still growing and
the brain is still developing. And alcohol obviously kills
the brain cells.
REP. MULDER: I appreciate those comments. And I
appreciate you taking the time to answer all my questions.
I wish we could solve the problem of the fact that kids
shouldn't be drinking, but I think that's a bigger problem
that I'm not sure we'll be able to master.
REP. PORTER: Representative James.
REP. JAMES: Thank you.
Susan, I want to compliment you on your ability and
your quest. And I think we're very lucky to have people
like you involved in (indiscernible).
I just have a few comments that I would like to make
about things we've been speaking about and have your
response on it.
For just -- just to use a term I'm going to call -- I'm
going to put people in two classes. Native and white, which
is not necessarily (indiscernible), but (indiscernible)
difference between the people that have the culture next to
the land of (indiscernible) the rest of us who have been
away from Alaska too long.
And I see that the Native population is a real
advantage over the whites because they're closer to their
roots and culture and I think that we as a white society
might find a lot of answers to some of these problems by
being able to put ourselves into the hands of culture and
how they believe and how they live.
Being that the Native culture has a direct relationship
between the land or nature and the people and the rest of
us, the white coming in and talking about for so many years
from our hunting and gathering ancestors that we have
totally forgotten and can't relate that experience.
And so I'm saying that there is something in the Native
culture and the basic living of these people that we may be
able to pick out of there. It does not necessarily relate
to the land, but it's really a belief and a way of life.
And it's basically self-esteem and being accepted by the
others because we are a social animal.
I'm just wanting to ask you, do you believe that there
is something by us trying to gear ourselves into that
situation, that feeling of the Native community before they
were infiltrated some 50 years ago by alcohol, and is there
something that we, as a society can get out of that?
MS. PICKEREL: Well, I definitely would agree with you.
In fact, the difference for me was even just in this last
year seeing what happened to the children that I took out
and to myself being in that, it was real different.
And to be real honest, probably before the last five
years my need of culture didn't mean that much to me. And
even though today I'm not an alcoholic, the difference for
me in learning about my culture and getting back to what it
means to be a Native and all the values that are a part of
that, it's made all the difference for me. Life has a lot
more meaning and I feel like I can give more.
Now, because of that, as I said before, I think what's
important it's not just Native, but the hard work and
honesty and, you know, all the traditional values that we
recognize as being Native, that's just common sense.
But, I think, us getting back to the land and
recognizing that there's something bigger than us out there
and to quit being so selfish about -- I guess, self-centered
is part of that. And I think being a part of the land is
not some mystic idea. It's something that should be
incorporated whether you're white, black, yellow, red,
whatever and you using some common sense and figuring out
your spirituality whether it's Native or what it is.
REP. JAMES: Thank you, Susan, and of course, I have to
admit that this makes no sense when it comes to dealing with
what the reality is. And like Representative Holmes (ph)
said, they do have to take care of (indiscernible) strong,
we also have to take care of the alligators.
So, I'm just looking at the prevention side of this and
there's two complete sides you have to deal with.
Thank you.
REP. PORTER: Thank you and thank you, Susan.
Here in Fairbanks there's David Sam.
DAVID SAM: I guess I need to do this a couple of
different ways. While I am (indiscernible) Tlingit.
I must take exception to a couple of comments that were
made earlier. The comments are relating to the myth of the
drunken Indian, although I did read the article long before
it came into the Anchorage Daily News. But, people sort of
agree with some of the issues involved in that.
I take exception to a white person raising this issue
when it had no connection at all to his life, to his
experiences other than visiting in an area for two years.
And I must take real offense to racism at it's very best,
it's very cleanest. And I just needed to say that.
I am David Sam. I work with the Rural Alaska Health
Education Center. The reason I'm here today is in support
of the University of Alaska Fairbanks presentations and
presenters. The issues involved, as you heard,
(indiscernible) talk about is very disturbing and some of
you are aware of the dynamics that take place in young
people. They were expressed very well.
I think the extreme nature of dealing with this issue
is very apparent. We have very young minds. Very young
away-from-home, if you will, away from authority figures as
was mentioned. But there is such a need to deal with these
people because of the -- it's a very opportune time. The
prevention aspects are very important. We need to address
these issues not only here at the university, and again,
there's such a need for programs, treatment facilities
available for these young people. Not necessarily in-
patient because of where some of these people may come from.
The importance as was mentioned a few times here on
evaluation tools. Again, for me it's not a matter of how
much a person drinks, it's not a matter of when they drink,
but what happens when they drink.
A comment made earlier about teaching responsible
drinking. I would like to know if individuals that express
this as a treatment would say the same -- would say this to
somebody who maybe had one drink, maybe had ten drinks, and
engaged in something that may put their life in jeopardy,
such as HIV infection.
I would like to know if they would say let's teach
responsible drinking if they have one drink or ten drinks
and get in an accident. I see this as being very
irresponsible, very detrimental to society as a whole. And
I feel that we need to take a more positive approach and
let's talk about the positive things.
Some of the things mentioned by some of the people who
belong to some of the people here. I mentioned that I'm
Tlingit, very proud to be Tlingit, very cognizant of some of
the attributes or some of the approaches.
We are one people. Many different tribes, many
different cultural aspects, we respond very differently to
whatever their -- whatever our will is. And I need to say
that because there are some treatment programs that may work
in interior Alaska for some of the (indiscernible) nation
people which may not work, if you apply that same program up
to Point Hope (ph) or down in Sitka. We need to be very
aware that a lot of these issues need to be dealt with and
responded to by the people involved, which means local
response.
In Alaska I'm seeing a very good response from various
kinds of programs. A few years ago we, with the Alaska
Native Health Board, we took a look at these service
delivery system with alcohol programs. One of the things
that we looked at was not any particular program, but
programs period. We know, for instance, that different
people respond at different times of life with different
treatment programs. Whether that's a prevention program,
whether that's an in-patient program, whether that's an out-
patient program. Somewhere along the lines something
clicks. Somewhere along the line people listen and are very
aware that maybe we shouldn't be doing this. Maybe I
shouldn't be drinking. Maybe I shouldn't be sniffing.
Maybe I shouldn't be whatever it is. Whatever that issue is
in their life.
I just want to say that we need to take a look at
what's going on across the state. Somebody turned a
sobriety movement. That sobriety movement has been in place
for years. That sobriety movement has been here as long as
the people have been here.
We've had people back with the introduction of alcohol
back in the late 1800's stay sober, recognize that alcohol
is going to bring devastation to our people. And it has
done that. The People in Peril Series (ph) did a lot of
damage, but it raised a lot of awareness. A lot of those
issues that People in Peril, for instance, did, those were
in proposals, those were in treatment programs, that
awareness that that brought, brought it to the white people.
These issues were well known amongst Native American people
across the nation.
But, again, it did some good. It raised awareness,
although it was very damaging because it opened up
generational movements. The alcoholism in society as a
whole is pretty phenomenal.
And so I just wanted to say those things. Just want to
say we need treatment programs, we need home grown
approaches to dealing with this and that can only come from
people's homes, people's communities.
So, I would hope that you would take a look at the need
for locally responsive treatment programs whether they're
prevention, whether they're in-patient or out-patient.
REP. PORTER: Representative Mulder?
REP. MULDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you,
David.
You mentioned that your organization employs counseling
at the university, correct?
MR. SAM: No.
REP. MULDER: No?
MR. SAM: I work with the Rural Alaska Health Education
Center which in the few years that we've been in existence
we've been providing continuing education for medical
providers from health aids on up to doctors. And we're just
recently going into taking a look at behavioral health
counselors particularly with training issues in rural
Alaska.
REP. MULDER: Okay. So, your individuals that you help
-- basically you teach counselors and people who do provide
the service in rural Alaska, correct?
MR. SAM: We are looking at coordinating, training and
gathering information on what is turning about in rural
Alaska, such as behavioral help training.
REP. MULDER: What type of problem do you see in
Alaska? I mean, is there a spectrum or is it just a narrow
scope of abuse, misuse? What's the perimeters that you look
at?
I noticed before you were talking about there is a
level that it clicks in each person's life and I agree with
that. (Indiscernible).
What is the scope of the problem that you folks are
looking at? Do you look just at those who abuse? Or do you
look at those who are chemically dependent? What's the
scope of the problem that you address?
MR. SAM: Well, the use of the alcohol usually by --
this is more on a personal level. The use of alcohol in my
life would probably tear me apart. The use and abuse of
alcohol is throughout society as a whole. I don't believe
that there is such a thing as responsible use. The chemical
that has taken the lives of so many people.
Our approach is to assist people working in rural
Alaska to help take a look at -- you may call it community
assessment or community development. How can they deal with
issues in their villages? How can they deal with issues in
their regions?
REP. MULDER: So, it's safe to say that you're involved
in the sobriety group as well?
MR. SAM: Well, I guess my being from a tribe in Alaska
and addressing issues that have hurt our people, such as the
use and abuse of alcohol and those that bring it into our
people, yes, I am involved.
REP. MULDER: Thank you. I really appreciate your
testimony.
REP. PORTER: Let me ask you a question that I can't
imagine that I've been in this state over 40 years and never
asked.
Any cultures other (indiscernible) in their background,
Indian cultures outside, some form of substance
(indiscernible)... prior to the introduction of alcohol in
Alaska, was there any such substance here?
MR. SAM: I can't really get into too many specifics
because there is a lot of question and for me it has a lot
to do with the intent. The use of alcohol, I don't see any
intent besides altering your state of mind and as it is now
it has definitely altered and ripped apart individuals.
The intent behind some of the other -- it's probably a
little too long to get into such a discussion. There have
been substances that have been used and abused and it has a
lot to do with the intent behind these particular things.
Things like you mentioned (indiscernible) had a
specific intent behind it, which has changed for a number of
people. That intent has changed, so it has opened up the
doors for abuse.
REP. PORTER: But, was there any chemical, that you
know of, in this state of that type prior to alcohol?
MR. SAM: Well, I know there were a lot of different
things. If not prepared right, if not used appropriately --
were used. Such as the ways of preparing (indiscernible)
substance.
REP. PORTER: Thank you, very much.
Okay. We return to the last person we have on the list
at least. And let me know if that is incorrect.
In Ketchikan, Claudia Boyd.
CLAUDIA BOYD: Thank you. That's correct. And I'm
here.
REP. PORTER: Please give us your testimony.
MS. BOYD: Thank you for allowing me my few comments
this morning on alcohol and substance abuse.
I am Claudia Boyd, Tlingit. I'm on (indiscernible)
City Council, (indiscernible) Volunteer Fire Fighters and
Indian (indiscernible) Corporation, Tribal Council Member
and I have been employed (indiscernible) Corporation for 7
years. I'm (indiscernible) Resources Manager. I work with
people.
No one wants to admit he has an alcohol and substance
problem, but that is the characteristic of addiction. No
one wants to hear about it, but that still is a
characteristic of addiction. It's all part of a process
called denial. So, how does one approach the problem?
I believe the core of education lies within the school
system, especially the younger levels. (Indiscernible)
substance abuse is not limited to a minority group. It
knows no color, sex, creed, race, religion, etc., and it
should be labelled what it is. A drug.
It's a problem that must be targeted to reach any
proportion of meeting a goal in education community wise.
However, one should have economic proportions I believe
before the message is heard.
One primary element is role models for the young kids,
teeny boppers, teenagers or young adults. I must even say
adults enjoy having a role model. So, this is another
element to education. Role models.
If the state could put together a mechanism for these
two community wide education with role models people might
be on the road to recovery. Like the economy substance and
alcohol abuse is a long steady fast road and no one notices
the problem until it hits the person sideways.
I am a firm believer of role models and community
acceptance. Why? I have first hand experience of going
through Lakeside (ph) Recovery Center 29 (indiscernible) ago
with key coming from self-worth, support groups only helps
provide one, the entity or (indiscernible) mentorship to get
things done.
How did I turn around? One backbone was the education
in the present school system to my son. As he made a
linkage to me to get his goal of a healthy environment.
(Indiscernible) This could indicate that one out of 10 are
addicted and yet one must realize that statistics only show
those that would admit to a survey.
My last point I would like to turn to the City of
Saxton (ph). Saxton took a stand. Those that are on the
City Council are sober, are recovering alcoholics. Saxton
also voted down (indiscernible) alcohol to help protect the
young. We believe in cultivating the young, but the problem
is still there of alcohol and substance abuse.
4500
(Tape change)
(Tape III, Side A)
0135
REP. PORTER: Looking at the clock and our schedule and
how many people are left, I believe we have no one else on
the teleconference network that is scheduled to testify at
least.
We have several people here and I'll refer to those
here. I believe (indiscernible) and Bill (indiscernible)
and Dolores McAda and (indiscernible).
Would you all prefer to go to lunch or would you
prefer.....
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Lunch.
REP. PORTER: Lunch?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Push on.
REP. PORTER: Push on? Yes, sir?
GUY PATTERSON: Was my name not on the list? Guy
Patterson?
REP. PORTER: Yes, I'm sorry. You're next as a matter
of fact. And I guess you're in a vote to push on.
REP. JAMES: Is there any (indiscernible - tape
dragging) push on?
REP. PORTER: I think that that might be a very good
idea.
(On and off record)
It's 12:30 and we've had a little break.
Put the little switch forward.
MR. PATTERSON: My name is Guy Patterson. And I'm from
Fairbanks. And I've approached this from many different
angles. I have worked over at the Family Recovery Center
which is at the Fairbanks Memorial Hospital and it's a unit.
And I am a counselor in the Patient Care Coordinator for
(indiscernible) program. And also (indiscernible) Advisory
Board and I'm a volunteer (indiscernible).
I was interested in your opening when you mentioned the
two assumptions. Assumption number one, there is a problem,
and assumption number two, which always seems to go along
with that was the resources and the funding cuts you'd
expect.
And my comment on that is that when we start making the
funding cuts for the programs I'd like you to consider each
dollar spent in treatment is really an investment and it's
going to be dollars saved later on down the road as we've
heard. Only one side, one small side, the legal issues
involved, but that's just a part of the overall problems.
And as we were talking there's other social problems
(indiscernible) health problems which cost a great deal of
money and probably more than the legal issues
(indiscernible) spending.
Last month was the National Treatment (indiscernible)
Month and (indiscernible) I was wearing my button all month
long and should have worn it today, but wasn't thinking I
was going to be testifying in this direction. Treatment
does work. And I have heard testimony today saying things
like drug treatment does not work and we're having a lot of
problems.
We heard today that there was no definition of
alcoholism, so I'd like to just throw out that alcoholism is
a chronic, progressive, incurable disease characterized by
(indiscernible) substance, alcohol. That is not my
definition. That's the definition (indiscernible).... it
was also characterized as behavioral and social
abnormalities and (indiscernible). Those are all parts
(indiscernible) for the definition for the disease of
alcoholism which has been in existence for many, many years.
It has been updated just recently. I don't have that update
(indiscernible) I'll be glad to send over (indiscernible).
There's a lot of disagreement on alcoholism and where
it begins, but that's not untrue of many other diseases.
Now, we've heard the concept (indiscernible) and I believe -
- I think that the best way we have (indiscernible) and
certainly even if it is a small majority or a small minority
(indiscernible) makes no difference. It's out there.
And I think there's a lot of information on that and I
certainly would be willing to pass it on to this group. I
know that Loren has much of that information on the disease
concept. It needs to be listened to (indiscernible). Other
more appealing information is given. (Indiscernible) have
to deal with that, yet we have done that for years and
years.
Also, and it got us into this mess, I believe a lot of
our problems now are as a result of not dealing with
alcoholism, drug addictions as we go along.
I, too, don't like the term (indiscernible), but we see
that as changing over a period of time as it does with other
diseases. We now have Alzheimer's disease
(indiscernible)... that's a common thing. I'm here to argue
terms, I'm not here to (indiscernible)... it is changing.
There is, you know, -- research is out there. I have
seen research out to prove cocaine is not addictive. I've
seen research out there that proves that inhalants are not
addictive. And they probably are according to the
definition of addiction. I've also seen a lot of research
which states (indiscernible) marijuana is not addictive.
It's out there. (Indiscernible) nicotine is not addictive.
Research efforts put out research saying nicotine was not
addictive and yet, research (indiscernible).
So, we have these conflicts and I believe that's all
part of (indiscernible) we debated. I wonder how much of
this goes on in other states (indiscernible)... make sure
(indiscernible).
Some of the things I would like to see this group
address... financial (indiscernible). We heard recently
that the whole addiction -- the whole side of that not being
addressed (indiscernible)... We also talked just at our
last board meeting -- passed a resolution (indiscernible)
American Society (indiscernible) definitions...
(indiscernible).
We've heard things about alcoholism today, but other
addictions are out there, also. (Indiscernible). I would
hope that, speaking from a provider point of view, I would
hope that this group would consider the differences between
the private sector and the public sector. There are a lot
of public programs out there. I think that the private
programs are making (indiscernible).... doing a lot of
research that we were talking about earlier and providing
much of the information that we need (indiscernible).... the
overall care for the state and I'm very concerned that as
the financial issues do get more and more air time that
they'll be a tendency to demand that the public sector
programs compete unfairly (indiscernible).
I'm afraid what's going to happen is the private sector
is going to go under because of unfair competition and you
will lose a lot (indiscernible)... treatment that's
available. So, as this discussion goes on that is one of
the items that's (indiscernible).
I also would like to put in a word of support for this
group to develop or get involved in developing strong
progressional standards. There's a certification training
is a big issue in this state. I think we (indiscernible) --
we will (indiscernible - tape fading).
I would like to thank you (indiscernible)... this issue
(indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: Thank you. Question from Representative
Sitton?
REP. SITTON: Yeah. Thank you for coming.
I have a question. You'll think I'm dumb probably, but
is alcoholism typically covered by the average health care
plan, for example, or is it the -- you were talking about
competition, public heath sector and the private sector that
made me think well maybe insurance companies don't cover
this or something and some people resort to the public side.
MR. PATTERSON: That is a big question. And many
insurance companies do provide benefits to recovery
alcoholics to one degree or another. You know, many of them
say that they will cover 80% of treatment. Many of them --
as health care changes, many of them are starting to
determine what (indiscernible) it is and it involves
psychiatric treatment -- every five or six visits to a
psychiatrist, whatever it might be.
REP. SITTON: Hard thing for them to get ahold of,
isn't it?
MR. PATTERSON: (Indiscernible). There are different
ways of covering them for the insurance companies. Also
many times we'll see that in organizations (indiscernible)
programs they will have high option (indiscernible) and
almost everybody that's given the choice of $25.00 extra
dollars a year, whatever, and -- so often times people
(indiscernible) alcoholic and spend that $25.00 elsewhere.
And no one wants to say that they are going to need mental
health coverage. So, when we make that offer to the
individual -- (indiscernible) popping out -- so those
insurance don't cover.
Also, you have a much, much larger issue
(indiscernible) disease itself. There are people who are
suffering from the disease, by the time they get into
treatment they're a chronic alcoholics who have no means of
support. No visible means of support. Those people are in
need of fairly extensive treatment by that time and have no
insurance, no jobs, nothing.
REP. SITTON: For example, now assuming that a person
was excluded in the coverage, but they had problems related
to it like sclerosis or something like that, you think in
most instances the insurance wouldn't cover that, too? Or
is that typical?
I know you're not an insurance person and I'm not
either, but I was just wondering.
MR. PATTERSON: Generally they will cover some disease
(indiscernible)... of course, sclerosis -- by the time they
get it, often times (indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: Representative Mulder?
REP. MULDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Guy, thank you for coming today. The Family Recovery
Center. Is it public or private?
MR. PATTERSON: It's the chemical dependency unit of
the hospital, so kind of in between.
REP. MULDER: In between, okay. And the people you
treat are those who are addicted? Is that correct?
MR. PATTERSON: We do treat chemical (indiscernible),
which is the step before addiction.
REP. MULDER: The abuse as well as addiction?
MR. PATTERSON: Well, not necessarily abuse. People
can abuse alcohol (indiscernible). We don't treat people
who (indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: Okay. I'm just trying to figure out what
kind of people you did -- who are the people you get in this
Center? Are they all court appointed? Some walk-in?
MR. PATTERSON: Most of the people we have in our
program are not court appointed. There's a big issue there
whenever they come in from the courts -- referred several
times, it brings up an issue that is very difficult to deal
with. Whether or not the person is chemically dependent. I
think a larger issue, too, (indiscernible) programs are
testing for cocaine. A lot of people have come to our
program after having proven positive urinalysis for cocaine
and they are told by the agency that they work for, by their
union, by their whatever, that they have to get treatment
prior to getting back into the work force.
And we have a real significant number of those coming
through and we look at those and say, did they just use
cocaine stupidly or are they addicted or do they have
chemical use disorder. Just because they used cocaine does
not mean they are addicted or fall within the criteria
(indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: What type of screening program do you
utilize?
MR. PATTERSON: We use diagnostic (indiscernible) under
the American Society (indiscernible), diagnostic criteria
available (indiscernible)....
We have our own diagnostic (indiscernible). We also
use a substance use diagnostic (indiscernible) package
program for people who are coming through the court
(indiscernible)....
One of our diagnostic tools that we probably use most
often a person could lie through (indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: How do people get to your program?
MR. PATTERSON: Most of them are advised to be there
from their employers or their family members. They just
have problems with chemical and repeated problems with
chemicals and they can't seem to beat it. Many of them come
in through their physicians (indiscernible) who suggested
they speak with us. The referral service. Any number of
things.
REP. MULDER: Do you base your statistics on
(indiscernible).
MR. PATTERSON: We do.
REP. MULDER: What type (indiscernible) introduction to
your center?
MR. PATTERSON: I really don't know what the numbers
are. I don't pay much attention to it.
Some of the problems with (indiscernible) as the
criteria for the success of the program are that
(indiscernible) not too long ago we had a person come into
the program referred to us through the (indiscernible).
This person was an alcoholic, he had a tendency to become
violent and abuse his wife and children. He went through
our program and was sober for a very short period of time.
A couple of months after he left he ended up getting drunk
again. We treated the entire family and we talked with
everyone as far what the relapse (indiscernible) she decided
at that point to leave him and get a divorce and she moved
out of state with the children. And I look at it as four
people who actually benefited from what we had even though
the primary person did relapse.
I can say our program is as good as any other program
(indiscernible).....
By the way, this gentleman also went on to be treated
elsewhere which often happens and I believe this gentleman
is now sober. Many times we see people come in who have
been in treated 3, 4, 5, 6 times and that's not unusual.
And as David Sam testified to earlier, for some reason
it clicks (indiscernible)....
REP. MULDER: As an appointed to the Governor's
Advisory Board is there a feeling on the board? What is the
feeling on the board? Is there a socially acceptable level
of drinking in society?
MR. PATTERSON: Partly so, yes. I don't think anyone
there has ever thought or seriously proposed any type of
prohibition that I have ever heard of. We do support the
efforts in the communities to (indiscernible) -- the board
is made up of people to include, at least one person on the
board has a liquor license, (indiscernible). We also have
the president of our board (indiscernible)....
REP. PORTER: We appreciate you taking the time to
provide testimony.
REP. MULDER: Yeah, thank you.
REP. PORTER: Uh -- if a person came into your program
referred by his family, (indiscernible), and if I understand
your approach to it (indiscernible) convince this person not
to drink anymore?
MR. PATTERSON: If the drinking has gotten to a point
where it is causing problems and the person continues to use
alcohol that is a clear indication to me that maybe this
person can learn how to drink. At that point, I don't care.
I know that this person doesn't drink at all, that the
problem will (indiscernible) or at least he will be able to
work on his other problems that are there.
I see that proven over and over again. A lot of time,
even though I did mention that the chair person of our
Governor's Advisory Board spoke in favor of (indiscernible)
I believe (indiscernible).....
REP. PORTER: Let me take this one step back and -- how
do you teach prevention? Just by teaching (indiscernible)?
MR. PATTERSON: Oh, no. Prevention takes on -- that's
an entirely different way -- there's treatment and then
there's prevention. When I'm dealing with a person in
treatment I'm dealing with a much different way than how I
would deal with them in a prevention mode.
A person going through treatment I am actually working
on prevention only to the effect that I think that I can
work the family system to change the attitudes about alcohol
and drug use so that the children will have more success
(indiscernible).....
REP. PORTER: I'm really not coming from
(indiscernible) I'm just coming from an observation made
since I've walked in this room.
It seems to me that that was the problem. Treatment
isn't in tune with prevention. And it should be. If trying
to make you have to recognize, I guess maybe this isn't a
fair, basic assumption, but it sure seems in my lifetime
(indiscernible) alcohol is here and it's going to
(indiscernible) so -- from your point of view would you
never, in terms of prevention -- I don't like the term
responsibility -- how about teach irresponsible drinking?
Which assumes (indiscernible) drinking?
MR. PATTERSON: I also work at the (indiscernible) and
other programs. I believe that the treatment and alcohol
and drug addictions is (indiscernible) form of prevention.
It prevents a lot of legal problems and it prevents abuse of
the family....
REP. MULDER: I recognize that, but you recognize the
problems perhaps through intervention (indiscernible)
treating alcoholics.
MR. PATTERSON: We need to deal with the problems in
it's entirety. I also believe that the community standards,
the availability of alcohol -- our attitudes, the attitudes
of this commission right now, discussing it, your own
drinking behavior, your own drug use behavior.
I believe all of that plays a role in it. Your
determinations are going to (indiscernible) largely on what
your attitudes are at this time. I know that this attitude
-- my education is in education. I'm an early child
educator and I know that to teach children anything about
attitudes, anything that's going to be attitudinal must be
done prior to the age of 12 or so where you're not going to
be successful. So, I know that those attitudes are
developed by that time. Prevention efforts need to be
gauged for specifically what age the child is as to what
you're going to do.
When we do the smoking group for the peer counselors in
the high school program, that's prevention, that's a
prevention strategy. However, it deals with you who smoke.
But hopefully it will change the attitudes of the teenagers
as to the approach that they're going to take for smoking
which will be seen in (indiscernible) and the attitude
change will actually occur (indiscernible).
So, I believe to say that treatment is out of tune with
prevention is probably a policy we talk about it in the
field as two separate things simply to keep it clear in our
own minds. But, I also know that there's a strong treatment
effort and the kids seeing a strong treatment, the children
are looking at strong treatment efforts, looking at people
recovering and knowing that it's talked about, knowing that
groups such as this exist and the Governor's Advisory Board
exist and that hospitals exist with these problems and when
they see that they are more than likely getting that
prevention message.
REP. PORTER: Okay. Thanks.
Let me clear one thing in terms of our recent surveys.
One was yes, it was recognized that there was a problem.
And second wasn't (indiscernible)... available resources
(indiscernible).....
Next is Ron Smith.
RON SMITH: My name is Ron Smith. I'm the
(indiscernible) coordinator at the university's
(indiscernible). That position means that I am the
prevention educator for alcohol and drug abuse at the
university.
I am 75% (indiscernible).
I wanted to do a few things here today. I wanted to as
best I could briefly describe what the problem is at UAF for
alcohol and drug abuse to let you know what we're currently
doing, let you know what more we could be doing and address
briefly why we're not doing it.
I'll start with a model that I use that works for me in
terms of describing what prevention is and how I see my
role.
I look at the issue of substance abuse as being a river
that students have a potential of falling into. A part of
prevention is to keep them from falling into the river in
the first place. Another part is to try and retrieve them
from the river as early after they've fallen as possible so
that you're not having to drag people who are out in swift,
deep currents and being carried down stream. A lot of what
I do is (indiscernible) that image (indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: Let me ask in terms of that analogy,
(indiscernible) consuming alcohol and drug out of that
river?
MR. SMITH: No, my concern is that they're not harming
themselves or other people, is how I would phrase it.
(Indiscernible) dangerous to self or others the use of any
substance.
Let me start by describing to you the nature of the
problem as we have learned from the (indiscernible)
themselves.
There were three consecutive years of surveys
(indiscernible) based on federally funded survey instrument
that was developed to randomly survey a cross section of
students in thousands of universities nationwide. We
(indiscernible).
I'll just describe to you three (indiscernible)
information that we got.
Under the most recent, which is the (indiscernible)
that I gave you, 24% of the students described themselves as
having serious personal problems as a direct consequence of
their alcohol and drug abuse. 24%. About a quarter of the
students. Serious personal problem. (Indiscernible).
Serious personal problems include, thinking about or
attempting suicide, being taken advantage of sexually,
trying to stop using (indiscernible), thinking they had a
problem or having poor academic performance.
In addition 31%, one-third, said about themselves that
they had acted in a way that which meant the condition
(indiscernible).
The last one which is significant....
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse me, are there others?
MR. SMITH: Well, there are other specific forms of
public misconduct (indiscernible).... arguing....
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's quite a range.
MR. SMITH: Excuse me?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's quite a range of conduct.
MR. SMITH: Yes it is. That's right.
The last number that I will give you is the 26% of the
students have (indiscernible) drinking (indiscernible).
There is a very strong correlation...(indiscernible)...
personal problems.
So, the numbers hang together pretty well between the
31, 24 and 26%. There is a body of students who are within
the previous year, reporting these problems. So, if you
roll over year by year you're having maybe some repeats.
REP. PORTER: Is there any reason to believe that those
statistics are any different than what's in your survey --
general population?
MR. SMITH: There is a national research on student use
of alcohol which shows that college students use alcohol
more than their noncollege peers. (Indiscernible) -- I gave
you excerpts of that. But college students seem to know
better (indiscernible) about every drug except alcohol. And
their use of alcohol is (indiscernible) who are not
attending college.
Now, I should remark on this survey, this is properly
(indiscernible) 22 year olds. This last one was sampled
(indiscernible) whole range (indiscernible).
What students have told us is consistent with what
we're seeing. Students who come into the health center, a
percentage (indiscernible) alcohol and drug abuse problems.
The high correlation between alcohol and drug abuse -- well,
I'll just say alcohol for the moment and vandalism on campus
--- two years ago the police officer who does the stats told
me that all the cases of vandalism was alcohol related.
So, an enormous (indiscernible) alcohol related.
Virtually all the people who work with students who are
aware of the alcohol (indiscernible) college students have
identified alcohol as being the cause of relationships that
have major problems (indiscernible) individual students
(indiscernible).
So, what the students say and what we see is very
consistent.
Here's what's currently being done. There are
considered to be three legs of the stool at the table, if
you will, to deal with problems on campus. One is certainly
enforcement. Having policies and enforcing them and the
other is providing alterNatives. (Indiscernible). Things
to do besides drink. That's one of the excuses.
(Indiscernible).
Enforcement, of course, is (indiscernible) generally
speaking. Alternatives (indiscernible). Education is
(indiscernible) health center, medical staff...
Anyone who comes into contact with these students are aware
of these issues I think sooner or later turns out to be an
educator in some form.
All the students who violate campus policies regarding
the use of alcohol, in the residence halls (indiscernible)
one hour interaction depends upon the evaluation
(indiscernible). From those places, if I'm satisfied,
(indiscernible) I can leave it at that or I can refer those
students to additional services. One hour to my own three
hour. I can also refer them to the alcohol screening that's
conducted at the health center (indiscernible) and he also
brings......
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Are you the 3/4 person that
he.....
MR. SMITH: Yes, I am.
The infractions vary enormously. They go from students
who have clearly already done themselves or other students
harm. Have been intoxicated enough to be
(indiscernible)....
To anticipate any questions you might ask
(indiscernible) that my emphasis is on (indiscernible)....
Other things that I'm able to do are go into classes
and I have rearranged my schedule now to (indiscernible)...
I also work (indiscernible) and stuff like that.
(Indiscernible).
(Indiscernible) has come up and I took a look at my
list of students who have been referred to me. Very few
have been re-referred. I'd like to think and from some of
my information that that's because (indiscernible) positive
effect on them. (Indiscernible).... Anchorage
(indiscernible)....
So, I would like to be able to do more than what we're
doing in terms of (indiscernible). Last year we were told
there was a $300,000.00 short (indiscernible) forthcoming.
What we could do is (indiscernible) computer programming is
very successful on campus. Students seem to learn very
well. We have -- there has been a stop and go effort
(indiscernible) it'll be nice to have that.
Also, on the campus is (indiscernible) of these
concerns through-out the campus community -- a very valuable
element involving staff outside (indiscernible) and also
faculty. There are campus' where the faculty are very
involved. Even small ones and modeling behavior
(indiscernible)... a whole range of classes (indiscernible).
New student program (indiscernible - speaker speaks
softly and fades)... specifically coming from the university
Campus students are aware that problems are going on there -
- videos ---(indiscernible).
More treatment programs. It would be nice
(indiscernible) sexual assault. It would be nice to look to
the courts (indiscernible)....
It would be nice to do another one of these surveys.
These surveys have been very helpful to us in terms of our
education in what the problems are.
So, I think I'll come to a conclusion here. I think
there are lots of people who are in a position to help us
with the limiting factors in terms of what we're able to
(indiscernible) insofar as financial (indiscernible).
Prevention activities are valuable (indiscernible)....
So, that's why I came down to talk to you (indiscernible)..
equally powerful (indiscernible).
REP. SITTON: Can you buy it here on campus?
MR. SMITH: Legal aid you can. Yes.
REP. SITTON: Well, isn't the university sending sort
of mixed signals on the one hand trying to prevent the
problem and on the other hand making it readily available?
Also, cigarettes?
MR. SMITH: I don't know if it's a significant
contribution to mixed messages there. (Indiscernible) beer
commercials by the time you're 18...(indiscernible)...
REP. SITTON: How do you feel about it personally?
MR. SMITH: Uh (pause). I haven't thought about it a
great deal. But as an establishment (indiscernible).....
REP. PORTER: I have a personal observation
(indiscernible).... I used to smoke.
MR. SMITH: Cigarettes?
REP. PORTER: Yes.
MR. SMITH: I can't make those assumptions.
REP. PORTER: That's true. I have three kids and none
of them smoke. It's my belief they grew up in a period of
time when there was a whole lot of negative information and
attitude developed about smoking.
(Indiscernible - moving of the mic)
(Off record)
(Tape Change)
(Tape III, Side B)
(On Record)
(TRANSCRIBERS NOTE: First part of Side B to Count 200
blank.)
REP. MULDER: That's what I was getting at. I mean,
it's time consuming, but it does seem to be more
(indiscernible) and important.
MR. SMITH: Right.
REP. PORTER: Is Bill O'Connor here?
BILL O'CONNOR: My name is Bill O'Connor. I'm the
director of the Student Health Center at the university.
I first want to thank you for the opportunity to talk
with you about the problem with alcohol (indiscernible) we
see on campus.
I guess what I'd like to do is having been on campus
for ten years and in several different roles (indiscernible)
psychologist and now director of the Health Center I want to
speak to the problem of alcohol on our campus
(indiscernible).
The Health and Counseling Center, I think, sees some of
the (indiscernible) of the alcohol abuse on campus.
(indiscernible) Medical staff and counseling staff and see
some of the results of the alcohol abuse. The injuries, the
unplanned pregnancies, the transmission of (indiscernible)
HIV, concerns of HIV, suicide attempts, the (indiscernible)
domestic assaults and other (indiscernible) that students do
to themselves or perpetrate on another student.
What I'd like to talk about is what I see as a need for
expanded prevention education. I believe (indiscernible) I
don't think we are nearly where we need to be in terms of
comprehensive treatment on campus.
Joanne Ducharme when she talked about the 4200 or 4300
university students that are full time, I guess I'd like to
expand that some, too, the fact that there are around 7,000
students who come through our doors daily. Half
(indiscernible) part time students and there are around 9 or
10,000 students who attend the university (indiscernible).
So, it's a significant (indiscernible) that we deal with
(indiscernible).
85% of the students who (indiscernible) are from
Alaska. Most of them come from Alaskan (indiscernible) or
homes on the rural system and many of them will go back to
the state and be contributing members of the state. I
believe, again, we have the opportunity to have an impact on
these people (indiscernible) state.
Many of the students come to us already with alcohol
problems, not uncommon (indiscernible) begin drinking at age
12 or age 14. Some do not have any problems or have not
even experienced alcohol (indiscernible), but develop
problems in relation to peers (indiscernible).
There has been a great deal of talk today about what's
alcoholism and what's alcohol abuse and what is addiction.
I guess for me there is a continual (indiscernible)... my
concerns have to do with the student who is chemically
dependent or all the way through to the student who maybe
has one drink and gets in a car accident and hurts himself
or someone else. And I think all that still needs to be
addressed.
I guess one of the things I'd like to point out is that
the campus itself is a community -- it's a community within
a large community. Fairbanks and then state community. And
then I think therefore we have a responsibility to do some
of the things that Ron has already mentioned. The
enforcement of prevention.
I think it's also a community in transition. And what
I mean by that, as what was mentioned before, 800 to 1000
new people come to campus every year. Many of them who are
walking in and are leaving behind the old controls and old
peers and family they're helping to keep control and they're
walking (indiscernible)... and therefore are at high risk
just (indiscernible).
And so I think we, again, have some responsibility to
them in this community.
The other thing about this group is that it's an easily
targeted group. We can get to them in classrooms, we can
get to them (indiscernible) -- it's a ripe (ph) group to be
working with and I hate to see (indiscernible)....
On the other hand I think it's a population in some
ways in terms of education and prevention is falling between
the cracks. I think we're doing a good job as a state at
addressing prevention in the secondary and elementary
schools. There're extensive networks of programs within the
(indiscernible) Fairbanks that I think are doing a good job
on educating and preventing. I don't think we're doing the
same thing (indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: (Indiscernible). Is the primary and
secondary prevention (indiscernible)....
MR. O'CONNOR: I don't know the entire answer to that.
I can (indiscernible) as people move from high schools and
family into an environment that they've never experienced
before it's something that (indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: (Indiscernible).
MR. O'CONNOR: The other piece of this population is
that we are not talking about adults who are drawing
attention to themselves and (indiscernible). So, this is --
it's not the elementary and secondary group, but it's also
not the adults that are being referred to in depth patient
or out-patient treatment programs.
So, we only have the middle group here that needs
prevention work. It's not being addressed through other
means.
The states invested a great deal of money in the lines
and the thinking of this 9000 students. (Indiscernible) I
don't think we're investing as much in the lives of these
students. I know we're not investing as much in the lives
of these students in terms of what is a critical issue in
that (indiscernible)... how they use alcohol and
(indiscernible).
As the university, and Ron touched on some of this just
a few minutes ago, we've taken some steps, including writing
a federal grant, getting money for two years to get -- which
was really seed money to develop the prevention program.
That money was given to us with the idea that they could not
be reapplied for, but (indiscernible).
We've gone to the position (indiscernible) drug abuse
and partly because of limits and funding and partly because
I think they believe it's the university's responsibility to
address this issue having gotten the funding
(indiscernible).
Again, due to project trimmings and (indiscernible)
much of a priority as some other points (indiscernible)
negotiations.
We do have a modest proposal, F195, that would include
some updating or some improving of the prevention program.
And I guess part of what I'm asking for is for consideration
of that (indiscernible)... addressed.
As Ron mentioned there are things going on on other
campuses that we have not been able to do because of lack of
staff and lack of time. Ron mentioned a number of those and
I'll just highlight a couple of others.
Other campuses have extensive DWI prevention programs.
(Indiscernible). Other campuses have more assistance in the
enforcement and disciplinary process than we have. Other
campuses have been able to develop intervention programs.
In other words, peers addressing -- peers recognizing when a
roommate or a friend is having trouble with alcohol and
doing something to intervene (indiscernible).
And finally, other campuses have been able to develop
more extensive effectiveness evaluation programs. There are
lots of ideas for what we could be doing. I think we've
done a good start. As Ron mentioned what we're trying to do
through this is to talk with other parts of the decision
making bodies that (indiscernible) for these students.
REP. MULDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Bill, how does Ron program (indiscernible) into your
programs?
MR. O'CONNOR: Their program is (indiscernible)
students. The student health center was to provide
treatment for medical and for people coming in for
counseling. (Indiscernible). Outreach.
REP. MULDER: What percentage of your health care needs
relate to alcohol?
MR. O'CONNOR: I don't have that on the medical side.
On the counseling side we -- the figure that we counted last
year was about a third of the students we see in counseling
have some alcohol related issue. Now, it may not be their
only (indiscernible)... it may be their mother or father.
REP. MULDER: How many people are there on your Health
Center Staff?
MR. O'CONNOR: There are four counselors and four
medical providers.
REP. MULDER: What type of counselor?
MR. O'CONNOR: Psychological counseling. My training
is a (indiscernible) psychologist. I'm a licensed
psychologist in the state. We work the students anywhere
from adjustment to college, home (indiscernible) to
depression, suicidal.
REP. MULDER: Are most of those people trained in
alcoholism (indiscernible) evaluation.
MR. O'CONNOR: Most of them have as part of any doctor
program there is usually some training in substance abuse
(indiscernible) work with students (indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: The obvious thought is with Ron being the
3/4 person and you've eight people in -- just the
allocations in resources (indiscernible) appropriate
(indiscernible) needs that you're meeting.
Just curious of what allocation you had.
MR. O'CONNOR: And that allocation really has been in
response to demands (indiscernible) making for the other
types of care. We have a waiting list on the counseling
side (indiscernible) and medical staff are in
(indiscernible).
REP. MULDER: One last question, Bill. Do you charge
for the services provided at the Student Heath Center?
MR. O'CONNOR: The students -- the full time students
all pay (indiscernible) and so most of the budget -- and
then we also charge for medications (indiscernible) those
sorts of things. Minimal charge for counseling. The Health
Center in terms of finances we supply through the Health
Center (indiscernible) about 75% of our own budget. So, 25%
(indiscernible).
Did that answer?
REP. MULDER: Yeah. (Indiscernible) wanted to know or
through some screening or felt like he needed some help,
would it cost him to go through this evaluation if he's a
full time student?
MR. O'CONNOR: No. Not for the evaluation. Evaluation
and six counseling sessions would be free or paid for by the
Health Center. Beyond that they pay a minimum fee of $10.00
a session.
REP. MULDER: Thanks.
REP. PORTER: Thanks.
Okay, is Larry Hackenmiller...?
LARRY HACKENMILLER: Yes.
My name is Larry Hackenmiller. I am a member of the
Cameron (ph) Hotel Restaurant (indiscernible) Association
and (indiscernible) board member. Have a bar down here on
South Cushman.
I'm here today thanking you for having this task force
and getting information. I was forewarned by everybody in
the industry that you've got the biggest set of ears of any
task force that's ever been around, so that's a good point.
I thought I would give you some information and
statistics for 1991 on the traffic accident reports in
Alaska. And we don't have the 1992 figures. They won't be
out until October. They have a (indiscernible) problem.
So, when they come out hopefully we'll have an opportunity
to present them to you.
Basically my concern is misinformation here. I'm
running for political office in town. I've had the
opportunity to meet with different groups of people, special
interest groups. I want to point out warnings that I had
with the Fairbanks Educational Association. I met with the
board of those people, about 17 of them, and we discussed --
they discussed their issues and their concerns with me as a
candidate, and when it was all over with they asked if I had
any questions and I said, yes.
Could any of you tell me how many accidents were
alcohol related in 1991 in the State of Alaska? And they
kind of looked shocked. Now, these are our educators that
I'm talking to. And I said come to a consensus if you want
or just throw something out -- throw something at me.
So, the lowest was 45%, I believe and the highest was
68%. And there was only about five responses out of 17
people. And when I told them that the 1991 report indicated
8.8% of all the accidents in Alaska were alcohol related in
1991 -- these are the latest figures. They were astonished,
astounded, dumfounded. It's a typical example, though --
and this was asked in different forms. Now just the
educators, but other (indiscernible) and so on and no one
really had an idea of what it was all about.
To go one step further about misinformation or not
getting information, if you go ahead and take a drivers test
today, we ask that questions, how many accidents are alcohol
related or how many deaths are alcohol related in the State
of Alaska. I don't know what the answer is. They won't
tell me. Maybe you could get that information.
But, if you look at the figures -- and again, these
charts were made up by me (indiscernible), but the tables
are there right in front of the book if there are any
questions there as far as what the data on the table is
accurate.
But, I believe one student indicated, that was taking
the test, indicated that it was 50%, or just under 50%. And
I wouldn't call 27.3% just under 50% as far as deaths are
concerned. So, there's misinformation being applied here.
The newspapers, also, the (indiscernible) that's going
out with regards to -- we're going to be talking strictly
about the .08 here the .10. I read an article in the paper
there was a stabbing at one of the hotels in town here. And
right at the very end of the newspaper article they
indicated that the person was twice the legal limit of
drunkenness. Now, I don't know what the legal limit of
drunkenness is for stabbing someone. I do know in a motor
vehicle it is .10. But the implication there is obvious.
The press is obvious. They're wishing to extend a problem
we have in society by getting it out of proportion. And
this is commonplace.
In most of your articles whenever there's an accident a
vehicle accident, you'll see an article -- a notation in
that article about the traffic accident. It is not known
whether the person was drinking or alcohol is not suspected.
You know, they're giving a lot of attention to that.
As a bar owner, obviously, I do not support someone
getting out in the road and killing someone. It's my
business that's at stake here. And I've been an avid
support of MADD. We've crossed lines a few times, but when
it comes to getting that drunken person off the road, I'm
just as available as they are and I do what I can as a
responsible businessman.
The problem we have here with regard to education as
brought out before is that they had (indiscernible)
programs. And anyone will tell you when the economics of
the situation is brought out, no economy, no jobs, crime
picks up.
One of the other problems we have in our system is the
school system itself. Fairbanks right now has got 10,000
illiterate adults. And those didn't come from someplace
else. We've got 10,000 adults who can't read a book at the
8th grade level. We've got 80% of the juveniles in our
correction system are illiterate. There's the product of
our school system.
Now, I don't hope that the task force has to take on
the Department of Education, but we have a school system
that is basically producing 25 to 30% illiterate students
and they are getting a diploma. These are the people that
cannot get a job. These are the people that will go to your
counseling and have problems because they aren't working and
they will chose to use a substance to alleviate their
problems, whatever substance that be. Substance abuse. And
they're always going to be there. And right now those
illiterate adults are becoming parents. And it's most
likely that their children may have the same problem as well
because of the school system itself.
I think that if you go back to the root of the problem
and find out that the students that we are graduating from
our schools aren't getting the proper tools to succeed in
society chose their own mannerisms as far as which role in
life they want to play. 30% of them.
(Indiscernible). They can't read a book. They can't
read the warning label on a bottle of aspirin. Or some of
the regulations that are required if they want to continue
in some specific (indiscernible) regarding hazardous waste
and so on. It's very difficult. And I think one of the
roots of this problem here with our alcohol screening is we
are dealing with many of the illiterate public. And if you
don't have the tools to succeed then you're going to be a
problem. You're going to be dependent upon society for a
longer period of time.
And I think a lot of the abuse that we had was dealing
with that group of people. That is produced by our public
school system at this time. So, the problem is far
reaching. It's not just a matter of are we doing a proper
alcohol screening and so on.
How did that person get there to begin with? If we do
have the abuse problems or programs in our grade schools,
elementary schools, what effect is it having? Will it have
an effect on the two-thirds of people that do or are able to
read above a tenth grade level when they graduate? Or the
ones that are falling below that? Below the 8th grade level
in reading? Will they ever have a chance to understand what
is happening? So, we go back one step --
Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to bring out the new
statistics on our highways as far as accidents and so on.
But, the .10 system (indiscernible) trying to develop a drug
abuse system and motor vehicle drivers and they don't know
if that's going to be effective or not. I haven't heard
that much about it. But, I understand it is taking place in
some of the southern states.
So, using the Breathalizer, and we're all assuming that
that's an accurate device, that's been proven in court and
I'll provide some of this data later where they say if you
hyperventilate that'll decrease and if you hold your breath
it'll increase. So, there's all kinds of things. We're
assuming that that machine is accurate beyond any doubt and
that is the only device and the only piece of evidence that
you're using to convict someone.
And this is recorded that say that if that's your only
piece of evidence then you have to give that individual the
benefit of the doubt as far as any inaccuracies. And the
methods used to --you know, the hour and the times between
when you get -- I'm not trying to defend the drunk driver
here.
I want to point out, I want that man off the road. A
repeat offender, I want him in jail. I don't want him out.
You know, a third time offender who has no regard whatsoever
for anyone else I don't want to see that man in my bar and I
don't want to see him on the streets. The first offender
needs the education, he needs to be aware of what his
responsibilities are. And we go through training right now
in my bar every time we see a 21 year old, we spend about an
hour with him, give him every attention we can while he's at
my location to let him know that, here's the rules now.
Okay? You're not going to be allowed to do this and all
this stuff. So, it's a discipline they're not used to. And
they've probably been drinking for quite a while. So....
But, anyway, again, I hope to provide you with some
more information later on with regards to the new report
once they're out. They're normally out this time of year,
but because of funding, they're late. And to give you a
better idea of what is actually going on on our highways out
there so that you'll be properly informed and not
misinformed.
Thank you.
REP. PORTER: I want to make sure that (indiscernible)
-- Is Dolores here?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, no, she isn't.
REP. PORTER: She didn't show? Okay.
Bob Keller, I believe?
Did he just leave?
John Regitano?
(Pause)
JOHN REGITANO: I'm the executive director of the
Fairbanks Native Association. (Indiscernible).
As executive director I do not have all the detail
knowledge of the program that we do, but I do have a very
good general knowledge of it and all the (indiscernible)
which is very broad (indiscernible) treatment or people with
alcohol/drug related problems. It includes the detoxication
units, the only one in the interior here.
So, I just wanted to make a general observation here
and I hope you'll be able to digest somehow in your
gatherings here.
One of the general observations I have is regarding
funding for alcohol and drug rehabilitation programs in this
state as a whole. The state needs to be commended on
(indiscernible) they do (indiscernible) for alcohol and drug
programs. I think it's very important that I point out it's
really not enough funds to deal with the problem.
We have a lot of people who are in preventive work as
well as treatment work who are spread very thin right now.
I would like (indiscernible) with time I think you
would see the need for funding alcohol (indiscernible), but
I think it's fair to say that unless we, at some point,
stick more (indiscernible) sources into alcohol programs
that isn't going to occur. I think you made a good point
regarding the prevention. That's very -- prevention is very
important and I think prevention is the way ultimately to
eliminate it. And I think prevention does, in fact, need to
be addressed very early and needs to be addressed in the
first and sixth grade essentially.
And reenforcement -- in the cases where it's not being
re-enforced in the home, at least if it's addressed at that
age in public schools on a fairly intensive program --
release some sort of organized programs statewide maybe the
end results will be to see less people, adults, young
adults, having problems later down the road.
It's -- to me trying to stick more resources in a time
like this. I know what I'm saying here. I'm saying
something that's very hard to do. Especially with the State
budget. But I also know that somebody -- at some point is
going to have to look at this as a route to go. And the
reason being is it makes sense economically. If in fact we
can put the dollar in here I think we can avoid a lot of
other problems which the state ultimately has to pick the
ticket up on later on.
Some of them education, a lot of them are education.
When you're talking about (indiscernible) with a FAS (ph)
you're talking about a real expensive teaching, education
system for those children to try to get them to some
potential.
Also, medical problems that are related to people who
have substance abuse problems long term. And have had
substance problems long term. The medical cause ultimately
filter down to the state again and the state has to deal
with those. And unfortunately, when you get to that point
most of those problems don't go away quickly, if they ever
go away. They basically get to be maintenance.
Also, mental health. I think there's people that could
make a fairly good case that the mental health population or
people receiving mental health services, that population
could actually be reduced through preventives services
offered in alcohol and drug.
And then one that I think everybody is well aware of is
the criminal system ultimately has a lot -- regardless of
statistics you may hear or not hear, I don't have any handy
-- but it's real clear that a lot of the costs -- at least
in this city for incarceration, (indiscernible) and
everything related to it is the result of alcohol and drug
problems.
So, those are costs which the state has to bear later
and maybe treating alcohol through prevention and then
treatment is the way to go on those. It's more -- you know,
the economic....
The other point that I wanted to make was -- it's
regarding prohibition in this state. Fairbanks Native
Association and me personally have a strong point here. We
would not support prohibition mandated by the government,
because it doesn't work and I think that's pretty clear it
doesn't work.
I think prohibition still needs to be looked at very
seriously through other methods. Maybe some of the other
methods are by -- which in fact, I think are occurring when
in the communities in particular role areas do get control
of their destiny and are allowed to work with alcohol plans
they do have available.
The community can mandate prohibition and it's accepted
in the community. That's something that's set down there
and it's not coming down from Juneau not Washington, D.C.,
and seems to work. You know, at least it's certainly a good
attempt.
Also, I think prohibition, where the state can possibly
help to promote these is, I look to what AFN is doing, the
Alaska Federation of Natives. They pretty much over the
course of the last five years started to shift their
position to alcohol -- is not welcome. Alcohol awareness is
always there now. Everybody doesn't have a problem and
that's absolutely true, but it's rarely appropriate -- it's
function (indiscernible) organization to have alcohol at
all. AFN through (indiscernible) clearly initiated by
individuals and individual groups which remembers
(indiscernible) very vocal on that. I think those sorts of
things can work. You know, it's a self-imposed prohibition.
The (indiscernible) where they may in fact help in that
process and keep it moving along would be through
advertising or strongly encouraging those who are receiving
grants or contracts with the state to (indiscernible) which
is really geared toward educating children. It's just that
simply. So, that's what I would like to comment on
prohibition.
Also, on the funding. How do you come up with more
money? Well, I think that needs to be -- there's a lot of
ideas on how to do that. But to not take it out of -- to
take it out of somebody else's programs, that's one way
obviously and that's one I don't encourage, because I'm not
knowledgeable on everything that the state funds and the
value of it. But I can tell you that Fairbanks Native
Association will not be opposed to increasing alcohol taxes
(indiscernible). It's a very simply logic -- that if there
is a cost associated with alcohol drinking and alcohol
purchases then in fact that should be borne by the people
who in fact purchase the alcohol. Real simple.
You know, ultimately the people who are making the
profits, which are the companies that sell the alcohol, they
may not see reduced profits, which I'm sure they won't,
because when you increase the tax, they'll just increase the
profit margin or raise the price so the profit margin stays
the same. That's fine.
Still the tax is a viable option. I know it's not one
that's politically very easy to sell, but I just want to let
you know that there are groups like ours that are not
opposed to these things. And I think that the cost needs to
be borne by that group, it's just that simple.
Another comment I had was regarding the Governor's
Advisory Council on Alcohol. Just to let you know that the
feelings that I have had with them have been very positive.
The group has been very professional and it's a group that -
- it's a voluntary group that really does not receive a lot
-- I think they receive as much support as they
(indiscernible) -- I mean they don't receive a lot of
support when I look at the Mental Health Board -- support
where they have paid staff and they have more resources
available to them.
I think that you may want to look at doing that more
formally -- the Governor's Advisory Board on Alcohol.
Because what I've seen you've got very devoted people that
come down from wherever they live. Some of them in very
remote areas. And they try and digest everything that is
presented to them and it doesn't have the annual funding
meetings.
I think it's fair to say that they hear everybody and
they try to make an allocation. And it's very clear
(indiscernible). So, I would just encourage you to support
them where you can in possibly giving them some staff
support. That, I think, if you see that you have access to
the funds to do that that may be something you'd want to
consider.
But, I think the pay back will be that -- that group
will be more able to support (indiscernible) they'll be more
the experts they need to be and use legislators.
(Indiscernible) and feel very comfortable with decisions
they are making, been thought out well and they had
everything (indiscernible).
That's all the comments I had.
REP. PORTER: Thank you very much.
Next on the list I have Banarsi Lal.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He just stepped out,
Representative Porter. Here he is. Mr. Lal?
BANARSI LAL: Good afternoon. Thank you.
In trying to prepare for my testimony this afternoon, I
tried to figure out what are some of the things that you
were interested in as you relay information about the task
forces. And I have several members of the staff that I hear
that would be qualified to speak on the treatment issues and
what effects and what screening tools we use. And I
understand you've had some questions on that, so I'll skip
that part.
And I'll start out speaking a little bit to the grant
(ph) (indiscernible) process. I think that's one of the
concerns that you had. And the other was that
(indiscernible) substance abuse and that was a
(indiscernible).
And as a program only (indiscernible) 1976, so it
certainly had a lot of experience with the grant process.
The general perception of our (indiscernible).... program.
So, again, you don't expect too much and as your expectation
gets lower and lower it's get much (indiscernible).
The other is that there's a lack of (indiscernible)
among those who see (indiscernible). And that's
(indiscernible) not typical for us (indiscernible)....
Now, contrary to what you (indiscernible) the program
that I'm familiar with and I've been (indiscernible) about
25 - 30 years, I do believe that that's a very cost
effective way of providing services. Think for a minute
that if the government was able to (indiscernible) in the
program, do you think (indiscernible)... And the reason for
that.....
(Off record)
(Tape Change)
(Tape IV, Side A)
(On record)
There was a report done by the legislative research
office, oh, about three or four years ago. It just compared
two segments that (indiscernible) and came up with findings
that the (indiscernible) programs were almost like 50% of
what the salary was in (indiscernible). And you are looking
at people with graduate degrees (indiscernible) substance
abuse counselor... (indiscernible) at a much lesser salary.
So, that's just on aspect of how nonprofits operate to
provide you with the best possible (indiscernible).
In terms of accountability, there are some systems that
are already in place. For example, the (indiscernible)...
all nonprofit organizations are required to provide -- to
respond to a single audit. And Fairbanks Native Association
certainly has -- they have CPA firms that come and audit
every single year and provide copies of the audit. And you
can in the public domain get copies of all of those and see
if they are accountable or not.
Sitting here and working for them for about 18 years I
can tell you they probably have one of the cleanest audit
trails of nonprofit organizations in this state. If that's
a question mark, because it's a grant you oughta be rest
assured that that is one area (indiscernible) program should
be looking at with a division -- very watchful
(indiscernible) documents and some of them have become
available.
Our 1992 August -- begin, the '93 is just being
completed.
In terms of program, the program itself is
(indiscernible). We have a (indiscernible) well, the
community doesn't do that. But in order for the nonprofit
organization to survive in this climate and in this
(indiscernible)... it has to be (indiscernible) we cannot
just take in money day in and day out and say, you know, we
do what we can. So, that's not happening.
And if somebody tells you that that's happening, that's
not. And I don't think that you should go away with the
feeling that the program is taking money and not being able
to produce a result.
One unfortunate fact in substance abuse cases is
(indiscernible)... not very forthcoming. He doesn't want to
come to you and tell you (indiscernible) or I am
(indiscernible) look at me. That's the drawback in the
system.
Now, it's not (indiscernible) how many people are in
there, how many got out and how many (indiscernible). It's
a substance abuse program and people are very shy in coming
forth and telling you (indiscernible) report or not. They
come and they tell you I've been sober six years or six
months, look at me, I went through school and I trained
myself to be this and that and that's the part I think is
the weakness in the (indiscernible) system.
We have been trying to (indiscernible) question out to
people saying please fill it out, please send it back to us,
you know. And the returns have been very poor. But those
who have taken time to return have reported that they are
doing very well.
I think it has to be a system that we can tract people
down and I think this state with our support and our
feedback should be able to produce this system. And a lot
of information is available. For example, a single person
entering the system has got a number assigned.
(Indiscernible) shows up anywhere within the system you can
find out if the person has treatment anywhere in the State
of Alaska. This system can tell you how many admissions for
the same person. So, there are systems in place.
Now, you go to federal aid and you start to receive
federal grants. 30% of the program is required to be
invested in some kind of (indiscernible)... methodology.
And it's a fact and we have received grants in the past from
federal government and from agency (indiscernible) 20% of
the budget has to go toward program evaluation. The State
of Alaska doesn't have the kind of source (indiscernible).
Now, can you imagine somebody, you know, who receives
$100,000.00 being able to (indiscernible)? It's a fact of
life. It's just that the sources are not there to do it.
But in order to (indiscernible) you would have to find money
somewhere to have that system in place. Otherwise, you
know, you're probably falling behind what everybody else is
doing.
There are two major initiatives on the federal side.
One through the Center for Substance Abuse Prevention, the
other is through the Center for Substance Abuse Treatment.
(Indiscernible)... Public Health Service. And both have
extensive evaluation methodologies in place for prevention
programs and treatment programs. And are requiring that you
invest at least 30% of your resources in an evaluation
program that you submit along with the grant application.
And we have been asked to do the same. And they also
do not say that an evaluation should be in-house -- they
demand that it should be an (indiscernible) -- hire someone
third party independent (indiscernible) or would report that
as a result of the evaluation directly for the funding
agency.
Now this is the kind of system that is in place and
it's coming into place (indiscernible) State of Alaska, so
it's something that's very timely, it's happening elsewhere,
it's happening here, including (indiscernible) receiving
federal dollars.
So, I think you go back (indiscernible) evaluation will
be in place whether you do or somebody does it. The federal
government is demanding and most of the grantees are
(indiscernible) either funded by the state or jointly funded
by state and federal dollars or by some other private
funding source (indiscernible) report.
REP. PORTER: I don't want to interrupt you, but let me
ask you before you leave this morning -- are the
(indiscernible) requiring a certain (indiscernible)
evaluation or just an evaluation. (Indiscernible) hearing
is that many of the evaluations that exist are based on how
many people are touched as opposed to people's behavior
actually changing (indiscernible).
MR. LAL: No, (indiscernible) evaluation
(indiscernible) process evaluation. How many people you
serve and did everybody have the benefit of the assessment?
Did everybody have a treatment plan completed? Did
everybody receive one on one counseling or did everybody
receive -- I think they have gone beyond that. They are
more into (indiscernible)...
And tell me what happened to the person after
completion of treatment three months, six months, twelve
months. That's the kind of (indiscernible) they are looking
for.
REP. PORTER: How then are you gathering this
information? It seems to be one of the problems.
MR. LAL: That's what we're doing now. We got our
federal grant last year so that's what we're in the process
of doing now.
We have sent out letters to people who have completed
three months of treatments, six months of treatment, nine
months of treatment and we are receiving some information.
It's very difficult because the clients move around so much
and most of the ones don't leave a forwarding address or
give you one, when their mail is not received and it comes
back.
So.... you're looking at the same, just you know trying
to go to them (indiscernible) and hopefully, you know, we'll
find them.
REP. PORTER: It seems to me that we've heard enough
information -- at some point in time if we're really serious
about this type of evaluation, this system, that a bunch of
systems would have to come together so that we can get this
straightened out. Criminal justice, health, other treatment
programs and those kinds of things.
If, we're not necessarily looking for a response right
now, but if, when you're attempting to do this you come
across any obvious areas that you can include in this, let
us know..
MR. LAL: Yeah. I think, you know, the most natural
coordination can certainly be formed with these substance
abuse programs and mental health programs and other programs
and the DHSS and special programs. They are unfortunate,
recipients of a large number of alcohol abuse using clients
and those who have (indiscernible). And so I think that
would be the most natural probation.
I think that, you get copies of all of your stats and
see how many.... and I think one agency that could take the
lead in coordinating all of that information is
(indiscernible) -- it shouldn't be that difficult, I think,
and maybe part of the task force activity would be to find
any system whereby all this information can be somehow
analyzed to produce that outcome.
REP. PORTER: One of the issues that has to be dealt
with is the requirement that each one of these systems has
to work out (indiscernible).
MR. LAL: I think.....
REP. PORTER: Even though we have the same names
(indiscernible).....
MR. LAL: Well, I think if you have -- I don't know,
maybe Loren can speak to this, a long time ago we had this
interdepartmental coordinating council and that included a
number of departments, and I don't know how often they meet
now, but I have heard somewhere that there was a body that
was called an interdepartmental coordinating council, called
committee or something, and you know, an x-number of
departments and their commissioners who were listed as
people who would be meeting periodically to review such
information. I think that list is not comprehensive enough
and can certainly be enlarged to include some other
departments that would fulfill the needs of this this
commission as well as the legislature.
In terms of community driven programming I think there
are several pluses that we have. I don't know if you would
want to be in a position where you make the decisions and
say that this community gets this and that community
(indiscernible)... I think you would be better off to have
the people in the region to come up with a grant application
or a proposal to address the needs. I think in giving them
the ownership in dealing with their own problems and making
them accountable, I think you can probably achieve the best
result.
It's one of the weaknesses in the system in that there
are no fall back resources in smaller communities. For
example, in Fairbanks, we see, oh, about 25 to 35%
(indiscernible) from the Bush, small villages, like south
regional units -- they do not have even a house, for
example. So, any person who stays here, goes through detox,
a short term 30 day treatment and a longer term treatment,
has to go back to the village and somehow extend sobriety --
goes back to the same environment where there are no
support. And I think you may want to look at, you know, you
may want to take -- revisit the system where the Alaskan
communities (indiscernible) levels 1, 2, 3 and 4 and take a
look at what's available at level 1, 2, 3, and 4 and what's
not available and try to find out, you know, what are the
gaps in those services that we need to fill in order to
provide the best outcome for somebody who is leaving
Fairbanks, to Nome, Anchorage, Nome and Kotzebue, and into
the village. And I think that's some weakness in the
support system.
The one thing that you may want to do regardless of
what system you agree to, what's most beneficial, you need
to keep in mind that there's another system in place in the
State of Alaska that's driven by the (indiscernible). And
that's a fairly substantial chunk of dollars that's
available.
Now, Indian Health Center has it's own requirements for
programming, programs standards for certification of
counselors, for certification of of program administrators,
reporting requirements, and I think we, in the
(indiscernible) have worked very closely with
(indiscernible) duplication, that could be a hardship on the
programs, those who serve on the programs, those who work in
the programs and those who monitor the programs.
So, we have the need for two MIS (ph) systems. We have
somehow worked for years and years and now we have one
reporting system that acceptable to the Feds.
Most recently the director's association and the
division staff worked together with IHS (ph) to see that the
counseling certification requirements were pretty much the
same. So, we have now after over a year of effort have been
able to come up with some consensus on what should be the
counseling credentials and what should be the requirements
of process to be certified under both the systems so that we
have only one system in place.
Now, in order to have the similar kind of cooperation,
you know, you need to look at what else we can coordinate
our resources to come up with an evaluation methodology and
an outcome methodology and an outcome. You know, that's
acceptable to both. Otherwise you'd be asking the program
people to (indiscernible) and I think that's something that
maybe Loren can help with in initiating some kind of meeting
(indiscernible) in service people.
So, you may need to keep that in mind, because these
are some key players in this system that have an equal
(indiscernible) sustained (indiscernible) time. And I think
that's something that I believe would be very beneficial.
I'll stop here and if you have any questions I'll be
happy to answer them.
REP. PORTER: No. Thank you very much.
MR. LAL: Thank you.
REP. PORTER: The next I have is Larry -- and I'll let
him tell us what his last name is, because I'll probably
botch it up.
LARRY CAGNINA: Larry Cagnina.
REP. PORTER: Okay.
MR. CAGNINA: Like I said, my name is Larry Cagnina and
I'm the Out-patient Coordinator for Youth and
(indiscernible) Association and I also do the
(indiscernible) residential treatments.
I'm not going to go into a long dialogue. You know the
admission criteria and all that.
The one thing that I would sort of like to give
testimony to is the fact that working with adolescents I
really feel the state and being a nonprofit organization,
the state and some other levels are not funding enough for
the adolescence in our section. I believe that the school
system is doing a good job in policing alcohol and drug
problems in the school level and referring out to agencies
here in town to do intake assessments to see if there is a
problem with alcohol or drugs.
And I would like to say that about 90% of our
assessments and request for assessments come from the school
district. And then the other 10% come from the Fairbanks
Youth Facility. And a couple (indiscernible) referral.
And I really feel that besides the prevention end of it
that more money should be put in the out-patient for
adolescence. I think that's where the problem starts. What
you're seeing at the other spectrum is the adultery
(indiscernible).
It's real simple to just say no, but to do that in
reality is a whole different range. The other area that I
feel and this is partially in-house, but it could be looked
at at the state level, too, is the use of peer counselors
throughout the system. Since I've been the adolescent out-
patient supervisor in the last year and a half I've seen
close to a dozen clients who have brought on to the
university and started off at 12, 13 years old.
(Indiscernible) family problems and gone on to the
university and had their education (indiscernible).
And I think that those individuals are the ones that
really should be sitting here today. If I could
(indiscernible), but that's my concern.
And the other concern for me is the getting the
involved. One of the big issues (indiscernible) come into
the money concerning (indiscernible) and then of course
adding more counselors on to do the jobs. The funding is
just not there. It's just not feasible.
REP. PORTER: Is Michael Daku?
MICHAEL DAKU: Yes. Hi. My name is Mike Daku. I'm
the manager of the Adult Services for (indiscernible) for
Alcohol, which is under the (indiscernible) Fairbanks
Association.
I have often been, let's say, (indiscernible) for
talking too much. I'll try to keep this as short as
possible and I'll just outline and you'll probably say,
thank God, but I'll address a few issues that you may be
wondering about in terms of what's going on in our field.
I think we have to understand in terms of how we
measure success. Number one, we really have to come to a
definition of what success is. And that we've had a problem
with. And lots of people have had a problem with how are
you going to (indiscernible) a success. And this is not a
field in which we have dealt with absolutes a lot. I mean,
I often use this with students in terms of -- you know, when
you look at the field of mathematics, I know that 2 and 2
equals 4 and nothing much is gong to change that, right? I
mean, that's the way it goes.
In terms of how can we say that somebody has recovered
from an alcohol and/or drug problem, how do we measure that?
One of the traps I think we have fallen into, and again
a lot of this is just coming from my viewpoint and from my
experience, is the trap of abstinence or non-use. What I
mean by abstinence, of course, is no use at all of any
alcohol and drugs, let's say post-treatment if we're looking
at outcome.
Mr. Lal mentioned process versus outcome. Sure there's
a big push now to say what are you doing with this money?
Give us some tangible results now that we can run with, that
we can put up there on the board.
I think the trap is with abstinence is that we're
looking at an illness, if we want to call it a disease or
illness, that relapse is almost (indiscernible) in it. Am I
saying that it's very predictable that it's going to happen?
A lot of cases, yes, it is very predictable.
Give an example of cigarette smoking. Okay? I'm not
going to pick on you necessarily, but I'm using this just as
an analogy, okay? You went ahead and you quit smoking,
right? Which was a very good healthful thing that you could
do. We all know that, correct?
You probably had some health benefits as a result of
the fact that you quit smoking. Let's say for instance at
some point in time in your attempt to quit smoking you had a
cigarette. Okay. Let's say that was even within the first
10 days or two weeks or one month of trying to necessarily
abstain from cigarette smoking.
Now we know basically you're addicted to nicotine --
you're addicted to a drug, correct? If you say you're going
to make the decision to quit smoking -- let's say you even
went to a smoking clinic or a nicotine treatment of some
sort, right? Let's say after one week you went through this
program and after one weeks time, let's say within seven
days, you went ahead and had a relapse. You went ahead and
smoked, okay? From that point on you did not smoke, you got
obvious health benefits and la-de-da you went on with your
life. Now, if I want to speak in absolute terms, are you a
success or are you a failure?
REP. SITTON: Which one do you report?
MR. DAKU: You see, in absolute terms, you're a
failure. Because you used a week later.
REP. PORTER: My impression of the difference between
the two evaluation -- using your cigarettes -- to my way of
looking at it the appropriate measure would be the
reduction, goals (indiscernible) as opposed to how many
times after I entered the program (indiscernible). Okay?
So, if I went another week, that's great. That's
(indiscernible) success (indiscernible). If I continue to
smoke two packs a day every day after entering your program,
that's failure.
MR. DAKU: Okay. But the point I'm trying to make is
it's very difficult and I don't think we want to put it in
terms of absolute terms. I think in terms of folks we have
seen in alcohol treatment in terms of where the money's
going and what's happening is lifestyle improvements view of
her. Okay? Even if somebody, as I say, using the
cigarette, even if somebody does have a minor slip, let's
say they go back to drinking or momentary drug use and it's
minor slip, they basically get back on their horse, so to
speak, and they get on with their life and they go from
there, in all areas of their life they make progress. I see
that as progress, I don't see that necessarily as failure.
In terms of the extent of the problem in the State of
Alaska, you were handed out some information regarding
incidents of alcohol related crashes and motor vehicle
accidents. What percentage was alcohol related? He claims
8%? 8 something? Which I was sitting here, it hit me,
geez, that's low. We don't have a problem with alcohol or
drugs in Alaska. Why is everybody getting so worked up
about it?
The problem is that even for those folks who were
involved in the alcohol related crash, let's get -- let's go
beyond the surface a little bit and look at those folks who
are involved in those crashes. How many times do you think
those individuals have driven under the influence of alcohol
and not gotten involved in a crash and did not in fact get
arrested for DWI, etc, etc.
If we knew that, there's been some wild estimates, I
can give you one estimate that for every time somebody drove
drunk or under the influence and was arrested, there's
probably 400 other times they did not get stopped or
arrested for DWI. So, we go underneath that, what do we
attribute it to? Do we attribute to just dumb luck? I
don't know. I don't know how to answer it.
If you look at the population we run a program through
the Fairbanks Correctional Center, if you look at the
program there and the population there, approximately 80 to
90% of the people who reside, if you will, in Fairbanks
Correctional Center, are there in one way connected to
alcohol or drug use. Either through misconduct of
uncontrolled substance, through DWI, through assault under
the influence, you name it. Right across the board.
So, in terms of the scope of our problem, it's
enormous. In terms of the allocation of resources -- I'm
not saying that the State has not been -- the division has
not been kind to us, they have. But for an allocation of 13
plus million dollars total with this population, it's
actually very little. If you look at what the number one
social problem in the State of Alaska, it's alcohol and drug
use.
I think there's one caution, however, is that it's the
idea -- Larry and a couple of other folks have mentioned,
the Just Say No program and things of this nature, I think
after we hear about it so much we start to turn off. And
it's kind of like, Oh God, here we go again. Alcohol and
drug use. Yeah, just say no, blah, blah. It really becomes
a cliche and it makes no impact. It doesn't make an impact
until it's literally turned off the personal side.
And when you're involved in an accident that involves a
drunk driver and those sorts of things, those drunk drivings
and those incidents are just symptoms, if you will, of the
underlying alcohol and drug problem. That's the way they're
shown. Just like if you had a cold and your nose was -- I
wouldn't have to be, like Ralph Segan (ph) says, a rocket
scientist to know whether or not you've got a cold. I would
know that.
So, these things are just basically the symptamology of
the symptoms of the illness of the real problem. And in
this state in particular it's enormous.
I don't know if you folks have any questions regarding
our evaluation procedures or you know, standards that we use
in terms of admission? I know a lot of programs now, you
know, in the Lower 48, are really under the guns for the
whole health care system to provide that kind of
accountability in terms of where you're placing somebody.
I mean, if you skinned your knee you're not going to be
placed in the hospital, right? Obviously you're going to
put a bandaid on it or if you need a few stitches, perhaps
it could be done on an out-patient basis. That's the same
thing as we're faced with, too. So, we've implemented our
own system which is an adoption of really a national
criteria to go ahead and look at, where are we going to
place people and what level of care and not in fact over
treating somebody. They don't need to be overtreated.
I can answer any questions.
REP. MULDER: How long does that evaluation
(indiscernible) how extensive is it?
MR. DAKU: The one on one evaluation to determine if
someone has a problem? In most cases approximately two
hours in length. Then once, in terms of evaluation
procedures, once we have that information the whole cycle,
social history, (indiscernible) information from perhaps a
referral source, that referral source may be probation and
may be part of the court system and be part of social
service system, once we have all that and we take that
information to what we call our Admission Review Committee
then we institute and use what is referred to as the ASM,
Americana Society Medicine criteria to determine what level
of care actually that person's going to be placed in.
So, in other words, it's using actually national
criteria to make sure in fact that you're not overtreating
someone. Because the way we look at is, we put ourselves in
the framework or in the shoes of you're paying this person's
bill. Now they need to get the biggest bang for the buck
and what level of care are they going to in fact get that
bang through the buck. And it's your money, where are you
going to place 'em?
REP. PORTER: Unless this person tells you or the
person who referred he or she knows, you would not know how
many previous times (indiscernible) health problems
(indiscernible).....
MR. DAKU: The way we did know is if they've been in
the State of Alaska system, they've been in the management
information system before we would have that information.
We could go ahead and provide that.
REP. PORTER: Which system is that?
MR. DAKU: That's the management information system
that we have with the alcohol and drug abuse area. It's our
own, all staff and all programs are under the management
information system in terms of looking at clients that are
taking into programs, what components they're put in, etc.,
and that information can in fact, and that was --
(indiscernible) mentioning.
That information could be from there, it could be from
any other collateral resource we may have. We may actually
have a file in effect on that person as long as they've been
within the system with the past seven years. We would also
have additional information.
There's two diagnostic rules that we really go by and
they're not necessarily set in stone. But, number one is to
gather as much collateral information as you possibly can.
Just like if you were a physician or doing some work, you'd
want to know background information, prior history, so on
and so forth in terms of to better treat that person. So,
we gather as much information, number one. And number two,
you're always going to assume deception, because that's the
nature of the thing.
Deception finds itself or shows itself in many areas.
You go back to the guy who's been stopped for his first DWI
or has his first alcohol related accident. You asked them,
have you driven under the influence before or have you had
any previous DWI's or legal ramifications due to your
drinking? No, not really. Of course, you may have from the
Alcohol Safety Action program, you may have the spread sheet
in front of you that says, "Well, let's see. You have three
prior DWI's, gee, that's interesting. But, you've never
been arrested before?" "Oh no, I haven't."
We have to understand that when folks get involved with
alcohol and drugs, I'm not necessarily talking about the guy
who every once and a while has a beer or glass of wine with
dinner, they have a very, very significant relationship to
protect. And you are going to do whatever you need to do in
fact to protect that relationship.
Are you going to commit acts of omission and commission
if you will? Of course you're going to. You need to
protect the relationship. The evaluator and the evaluation
process, what literally is doing besides the fact that it's
kind of an investigative and diagnostic process, is that
process is really designed to poke holes in that
relationship with alcohol and drugs. And to ultimately
through treatment show that person here's a snapshot of
here's what's going on for you. These are the consequences
or continued consequences as a result of your alcohol and
drug use, here's what, in fact, you can do about it.
And just like going to the doctor, here's your
treatment plan or prescription. We'll help you write it
out. You fill it. Ultimately if you fill it, the chances
of you doing well are pretty good.
REP. MULDER: Is responsible drinking a part of your
treatment in evaluating?
MR. DAKU: No.
REP. SITTON: Sometimes I despair because of it's
magnitude and it seems to me that we put billions and
billions of dollars into various programs, including public
education and we still have the problem. So, in order not
to be battling (indiscernible), so I'll know who the enemy
is, (indiscernible) DWI. What would you do about a DWI
problem (indiscernible)? It's something I can get my hands
on. I don't think we're going to ever, ever win. I mean
it's just.....
MR. DAKU: Yeah, there's so many DWI symptoms, if you
will, (indiscernible). It's just like all the other so
called symptoms that we've looked at.
In terms of DWI, (indiscernible) what you often hear
from folks is, well, if you made the penalty more severe
then you would impact people. Now, that has some validity.
It doesn't have validity in some other areas. It has some
validity in the fact that I think in terms of public
awareness, people have become more publicly aware and are
perhaps a little bit more careful of getting in a car and
driving. Okay?
I'm not saying that their drinking behavior per say has
changed at all. I'm saying what they're not doing is,
they're not drinking, stepping in the automobile and taking
off and getting busted for DWI. So, what you have to do is
consistently, coming from the treatment view point, is you
have to consistently deal with the drinking behavior itself.
People may not in fact drink and drive.
If they continue to drink and they continue with the
drinking behavior, I will guarantee you you will see it
sprout, if you will, in other areas that are alike. They're
not going to get a DWI. Because oftentimes if you ask these
folks what are you going to do differently now and they're
still in denial about the problem, which is their drinking?
What they're going to say is, I'm not gong to drink and
drive. I'm not going to get in the car. The drinking and
driving, the getting in the car and driving is not the
problem. It's the drinking behavior itself that we have to
consistently center on.
On the other side in terms of the punishment, look at
states who have the death penalty. You want to look at the
ultimate punishment, capital punishment and the old murder
belt through the South. Those are also the states that have
the highest incidents of murder, yet they have the most
severe penalty.
REP. SITTON: Let me ask you something else, then.
What's producing these kinds of people? That's the question
we have to ask, isn't it? What's producing the kind of
people who are in the state, the feds, and United Nations
and has to micromanage their personal lives. Is something
wrong with our civilization that produce people like this?
Are the numbers growing? What's the deal here?
MR. DAKU: Well, that's probably a million dollars
question.
REP. SITTON: Well, I know that.
MR. DAKU: I think the numbers have grown. You know,
if you look at the (indiscernible) in terms of where does
this all come from, I mean, is there a genetic phase. Sure.
Very possibly. Is there a sociological (indiscernible),
very possibly. Is there a belief or value system that's
incorporated in these folks? Sure, very possibly. Are
there personality traits even that can possibly predispose
an individual? Sure, very possibly.
It's the same question that we're looking at in terms
of where does this cancer come from?
Boy, I don't know. Is it genetic, is it environmental?
Where exactly is it coming from?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: For example, Mr. Chairman, we
have a good bit of debate about whether we should teach
responsible drinking or not. We look at the French
(indiscernible - phone ringing) children from a wee-age on
have two glasses of wine a day with their meals and they
don't have alcoholism problems we have in this country.
So, were they taught responsibly, should be teach
responsibly? I know this is something we'll get into more
and more. But, it's my own personal view, not for the
record or any official proceedings, but I happen to think
the entire western civilization is indicted because of the
kind of people we're producing. That's my view.
REP. PORTER: Thank you.
Mike?
MIKE (?): Millions and millions of dollars later we've
invested into the research, development programs. Are we
making any headway?
MR. DAKU: I think we're making headway in terms of
changes in individuals lives in terms of, is the lifestyle
improving?
Yes. I think in terms of folks have gone through
treatment.
On the prevention end, I'm not so sure. I'm not so
sure, because as Joe says, more and more of these
individuals, they have to come from somewhere. It starts
somewhere. More and more being produced. So, on that end,
I'm not so sure.
I think that one flaw that we've made or one mistake
that we've made is historically speaking and you see the
same thing true with the programs right now, prevention has
been over here -- it's been basically a separate pocket, a
separate entity and then treatment is over here and they
kind of go on like this, but they never come together in a
sense.
When you're dealing treatment are you not also doing
prevention? In a since you are. And I don't think those
worlds and I don't think the State of Alaska, I don't think
in the Lower 48 and nationally -- I don't think those worlds
have blended as best they can.
So, in terms of the prevention end, I would say, no.
On the treatment end, I would say, yes. The thing we're
still grabbling with, of course, is the why's and the
where's. Where does this come from? If you could put your
finger on it and say this is why this happens, it would be
such an easy problem in the sense to deal with. It goes
back to mathematics. We know two and two is four. There
are no absolutes here. That's -- you know, we're kind of
banging our head against the wall and trying to come up with
absolutes where I'm not so sure there are absolutes.
Now, punishment doesn't work. Folks are talking about
work and somebody being gainfully employed and also literacy
skills. Let's go back to pipeline days in Fairbanks.
There's a lot of employed people here. There's a lot of
people with a lot of money and whoever wanted a job could
have a job whether it's a laborer's job or whatever it was.
Everybody had a job and there was a lot of money.
What happened to the alcohol and drug rate? Sky high.
Everybody was employed.
Let's talk about the literacy end of things. There are
a lot of impaired professionals, doctors lawyers, nurses,
accountants, right here in this state. Right here in the
City of Fairbanks. Are these very literate people?
Absolutely. Are these people that, quote, should know
better? These are smart guys, smart women. You know, they
should know better.
Gee, isn't it interesting, though, that they've been
impacted by the disease of chemical dependency. Whether
it's alcohol or drugs.
So, it has no real bearing on how smart you are, how
literate you are in the sense -- it really doesn't. It
again, goes to absolute. If you had a PhD, that must mean
that you're absolute immune to chemical dependency, right?
But, if you did not graduate from high school, boom, you're
going to have it? It doesn't happen that way.
REP. MULDER (?): Yeah, just in the role of a friendly
Devil's Advocacy, let's take issue about what you said about
punishment not working.
I'm not sure I'm convinced of that. I'm not advocating
this, but for example, if upon conviction of your first DWI,
if your automobile were seized, you don't think that would
be a deterrent?
If your automobile were taken from you and you lost
your $12,000.00 car?
MR. DAKU: No.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I want to take a stab at that
having had a bit of experience in this particular area.
The program started in Anchorage (indiscernible) showed
various (indiscernible) reduction (indiscernible) was
concluded that it wasn't a level of punishment
(indiscernible).... You can increase that substantially.
There is a point in which (indiscernible) unless you
have the other (indiscernible).
MR. DAKU: You still have to go back to the behavior.
Somebody gets a DWI, you've lost your license, right? First
offense, 90 days, second offense six months, third offense
up to 10 years, maybe forever. Guess what?
If you looked at the incidents of both driving without
a license, even those folks who are driving DWSOL, Driving
with Suspended Operator's License, it's enormous. It hasn't
changed anything. I don't have a car. Well, to hell with
the car, I've got a motorcycle. I've got somebody else's
car. I've got my neighbor's car. I need to drive, it's my
right. I'm going to go ahead and do it.
Does the behavior necessarily change? No. Can someone
go ahead and let's say in fact somebody doesn't drive at
all, then? Right? They get their car taken away or they
have a first offense or however many offenses and they can't
drive for an x-number of days, right?
Maybe it's through fear, like you say, fear of
apprehension can be very strong, a very powerful thing, so
they don't do it.
REP. SITTON: In jail?
MR. DAKU; Yeah, or maybe they're incarcerated for a
period of time or whatnot. The point is, in terms of their
attitude and their behavior you really have to take a close
look at it. Because folks what they'll do is, they'll say,
fine and dandy, I'm not going to drive for the next 90 days.
If the drinking behavior has not changed, you've
changed nothing. Because that 90 days is just an artificial
framework to work with him. And then once that 90 days is
over, boom, it's almost like saying to you, you quit
smoking, right? If your family got on your case about
quitting smoking, you may go to them and say, okay, I know
you've got my best interest at heart and all that, but I'll
tell you what. I'm going to show you that I don't have a
problem with smoking. And what I'm going to do is, for the
next 90 days, I'm not going to have a single cigarette. And
guess what? You're able to do it.
After 90 days is over, you go right back to it. Guess
what? You've got a problem with cigarettes. Mark Twain
said it good. He said, I'm great at quitting smoking. I've
done it a thousand times. Right?
REP. PORTER: Before I ask (indiscernible) information
system you're talking about. Is it a division system where
treatment programs have the availability as required? It is
not coordinated I'm presuming with (indiscernible)....
(Tape Change)
(Tape IV, Side B)
Kathleen...
KATHLEEN DOVE: Dove.
That's all right. My name is Kathleen Dove
(indiscernible) card if you'd like.
I work for an organization called the Cultural Heritage
and Education Institute and we are a nonprofit organization
founded in the late 1980's. We work exclusively and
primarily with the village (indiscernible). And I should
clarify that and maybe I should call it (indiscernible)
community just under 300, 135 miles north of
(indiscernible).
And I've been listening practically all day long and I
have a couple of comments that I thought might just give you
some general information that might help.
I'm not here to ask for money. We've had your money
for three years and it's done great things for us and I
would like to let you know that we do a lot of work
primarily on the end of prevention. We do not do any
treatment work.
I'd like to let you know that we have had two grants
through the state. One of which is a Community Action
Against Substance Abuse, CASA grant, which we used in
(indiscernible) school based prevention program. Now, we've
had wonderful cooperation with the village leaders in the
community, of course, because these represent our board of
directors and we've also had a great deal of cooperation and
support from the school staff.
And in 1993 for the first time we had two young people
graduate from high school in (indiscernible). Now that may
not sound like a remarkable record, but I'd like to -- I
stand before you to let you know that those young people
accomplish that task amidst a lot of peer pressure and for
the past five years there have been students who were old
enough to graduate and have been in the school system long
enough to graduate. But we're not either academically
eligible or did not meet attendance requirements.
And we feel that part of the reason they were able to
graduate two young people was in fact because of CASA
program. It did support and finance the (indiscernible)
troop for the last three years and that has been a great
(indiscernible) to put together people, elders together
(indiscernible).
And we even have children who are (indiscernible). It
is a wonderful program and we are very grateful to have the
opportunity to get in it. We'll probably be coming back to
you for more requests in the future.
We've also been the recipient of a high risk
(indiscernible) grant which is federal money, but has been
funneled through the state as well. And it is one of the
things I thought perhaps I should call your attention to
that you might be able to help us with, I don't know if you
can do anything about this or not, but what we do with our
high risk youth camp is every summer in Old Mintow we invite
very much high risk, not at risk, but high risk
(indiscernible) to come to Old Mintow to spend three weeks
solidly with our elders learning the traditional skills
practices and beliefs and lifestyles that help give them a
strong identity (indiscernible)....
Now, this program has been very successful. This past
summer we had 18 people who were young people in the
program. You know, usually we had 12 or 14 people. And we
do a lot with a very small budget. You know, anywhere from
$25 - 35,000.00 depending on what we can finance that year.
And you can imagine how large the grocery bill is feeding
basically 20 young people (indiscernible) six to seven
people.
One of the problems we have encountered recently is
when -- we have a very small window in which to hire our
staff to run this camp, because we always bring in temporary
employees. We usually have to employ a camp cook, a camp
manager, and one female counselor for the girls, and one
male counselor for the boys.
And we have been always (indiscernible) background
checks done on these individuals. We have a very short
window time to hire these people and get them into camp.
Typically about two to three weeks. When we go to get
background checks on these individuals we're told that
through the Department of Public Safety it takes four to six
weeks once we've submitted the fingerprint card to get that
information back to us. Also, the charge is $50.00 per
card.
Now, for those of us who are doing prevention, we are
working primarily with children. I don't know if there's
anyway to expedite that process, but by the time I submit
the cards and get the information back, our camp is over
with.
Now, this makes us feel uncomfortable. It makes our
board feel uncomfortable and we're putting our children in a
very detrimental situation.
Now, we can try to expedite things with our hiring
process, but when we employ primarily, for obvious reasons
Native people, there are other job opportunities out there
for a lot of these people, including fighting forrest fires
and this sort of thing. So, we have a very small window of
opportunities.
If this could be looked into, I don't know if other
prevention specialists are running into this problem, but we
would like to bring that to your attention. That's one area
that we think you can think help us.
I must say, too, $50.00 a card for a nonprofit
organization is pretty expensive. It's gone up
substantially in the last year. It used to be $35.00 a
card, now it's 50. I don't know if there's a possibility of
getting a reduced fee for the nonprofits, but certainly I
believe expediting that process for those of us working
there would really help us.
We are also the recipient of (indiscernible)...
community partnership grant. You've probably heard about
community partnership grants. I certainly hope you have.
There are 262 of these grants, federal grants across the
nation. Alaska has been a recipient of five.
(Indiscernible - someone moving microphone around).
We're doing great things with our C-Staff (ph) grant.
We're in the third year of our fifth year. Now, this is
basically prevention planning. One of the things that we're
doing is some kind of innovative work. We're trying to give
our young people some alternative choices with what we do.
So, for instance, this summer we funded a summer youth
(indiscernible). We took the kids camping. We opened up
the arts and crafts center in (indiscernible) and teaching
them skills. We had reading hour for the very young
children. We took them camping down at Denali Park and down
in McKinley area. So, we're just giving them alternative
opportunities so that they can make wise choices.
Sometimes there's a lack of activity. You know, you're
just going to hang with your friends and do what, you know,
your parents and your elders don't want you to do.
So, we've done some innovative things and we think
they're working. I would point again to the two young
people that graduated from high school just recently and
certainly the credit for that accomplishment goes primarily
to them. But, these kinds of efforts that center around
prevention are working and I want to really re-enforce that,
because as I've listened to the testimony today, I think
there's an emphasis on treatment and I've seen some
questions coming up -- is prevention working?
Well, I'm here to tell you that according to our staff
and to our evaluations that it is working. And that leads
me into my next point that I would like to make.
And that is talking about evaluation. I would just
like to echo and even confirm what (indiscernible) how
important evaluation is. Now, I'm not talking about
evaluating a client when they come in for treatment. I'm
talking about (indiscernible) evaluation. Meeting goals and
objectives.
When we have a grant or a notice grant award that comes
to our office for a proposal that we have sent in, we have
to think of that as a contract. And we have to realize that
this is an agreement just between (indiscernible) sorts of
measurable outcome.
Now, prevention is -- it's different to measure
prevention than it is to measure treatment. Because in
treatment you have clients and you have numbers and you can
tract some of these things.
It's a little bit different with prevention. So, if
you are going to look at changing, reinstating, somehow,
realigning the evaluation process for your prevention
grantees, here is what I think is one of the primary keys.
And that is, to have an evaluation process does not evaluate
at the end of the program, but evaluates as the program
progresses. And what you need in order to do that is
baseline data. And here's the important catch.
With those of us who are working in small world
communities, there is not always baseline data available.
You might hear this term (indiscernible). One of the things
we were required to do the first year of our (indiscernible)
grant was to do an (indiscernible) for the village. And
believe me we got some real extensive documentation. It
took us months to get it. And in some pieces we could not
get documentation, because when we phoned different resource
agencies located in Fairbanks who are performing services
for the village population (indiscernible)... they're not
keeping records in the same way.
There's no consistent forms being used. This is a
problem with regards to collecting data. Also, you've
obviously been faced, you know, some hesitation about
getting information just in a village setting, not just
because everybody knows everybody, but oftentimes people are
(indiscernible). And this is a real primary factor that we
need to deal with.
So, poor evaluation, I would say evaluate as you go
when you're doing prevention. Look at measurements that
will give you a baseline data of the self-esteem of the kids
in the school. Okay? So, this is the important thing that
I would like to emphasize. And then collecting that
baseline data.
Now, you can't obviously make a plan where you're going
to -- initial needs (indiscernible) for every town,
community or village in the state. We can't afford that.
But, people can be in looking at data (indiscernible).
United Way needs these assessments. Even agencies have
their own gut feeling about what's out there. And those
feelings aren't hard data, but they give you a place to
start looking for the data. That's real, real important.
And I just want to thank you again. Those of us at
(indiscernible) are really proud of what we're doing. We
think we are having success. We are the recipient this year
of the Governor's '94 Prevention grant through the
Department of Education. A very small grant. We are going
to keep plugging along, we're going to come back to you with
request, but on behalf of my boss, Robert Charlie (ph), the
founding director of this organization, our board of
directors who (indiscernible) leaders and (indiscernible) we
are very grateful.
We think prevention is working in (indiscernible) and
we hope that you will have the continuing dialogue because
we certainly enjoy the relationship we've had with you all
and certainly with the staff.
Thank you.
REP. PORTER: Thank you. And let me just say that
we've heard about your program (indiscernible).
Would you say that the program that you are running in
terms of (indiscernible).... is the relationship
(indiscernible) all of the state or this (indiscernible) one
of the problems of the other programs that you have
(indiscernible) two staff people for every client, hundreds
of thousands of dollars available... Do you think you fall
into that category or do you fall into a category of
(indiscernible).....?
MS. DOVE: Well, that's a good question and I
appreciate the opportunity to answer that. Let me tell you
again. The major source of income for our program is the
(indiscernible) money, but that has a very narrow and
specific purpose and it is a little bit broader
(indiscernible) prevention grants we have received through
the division. I mean, these monies have to (indiscernible)
small in my mind. (Indiscernible) less than $30,000.00.
The children -- the number of children who are
participating that first year was basically the total school
population and that was 70 children. Three or four years
have gone by, we have a very, very substantial number of 3,
4, and 5 years old. (Indiscernible) same kind of
opportunities of prevention from the (indiscernible).
So, the need grows among the number of children you
have and the resource is available in the village. Some
villages have reached a point in their political level ---
(Indiscernible - alarm ringing).....
(Laughter).
It depends on the village and the resources in the
village. Some villages have more economy than others. In
those villages that are still struggling politically
(indiscernible) it's different village by village.
But, I think you know, you're looking at basically
$30,000.00 over a three year period, so $90,000.00 for this
prevention program. And you might say, what have they got?
They've only got two kids (indiscernible).....
REP. PORTER: Excuse me. Now this is the total money
that you've allotted or is this just the state money?
MS. DOVE: This is the state -- this is the CASA
program, which is the school based prevention program.
REP. SITTON: What's the total cost of your program?
REP. PORTER: Between all the federal, state, private,
monies together, I'm going to assume are all ingredients and
necessary for the (indiscernible)... how much is that?
MS. DOVE: That's between 350 and $450,000.00 per year.
The first year we got our grant (indiscernible).
Now, it is a large sum of money, but (indiscernible)
Anchorage gets a billion dollars a year in the partnership
grant. Nome gets a fairly size, because they're dealing
with 11, 12 maybe 13 villages over in Nome.
Yes. It takes large sums of money to go and do this
and do this right. But it's going to cost you more down the
way. A lot more.
REP. PORTER: The total size of the population in Minto
is 300?
MS. DOVE: That's correct.
REP. PORTER: And your budget's $350 - 450,000.00 a
year?
MS. DOVE: Well, that's what it was in our largest
year. This year it's substantially less because we don't
have the same grants. So this year it will be about
$200,000.00.
It just depends on what areas we are working on. Now,
we do more than just prevention, too. But when you talk
about prevention, that includes development of Native
language, that includes providing some sort of economic
development that is culturally sensitive to the area.
This organization that I'm talking about, Cultural
Heritage and Education, it's not specifically and primarily
for prevention. It is to preserve the culture.
REP. PORTER: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's
necessarily a bad deal. We spend that, it roughs out at
$1,000.00 a head and we spend that much every year for
permanent program funds. So, it's no big deal.
Okay. Thank you very much.
MS. DOVE: Thank you.
REP. PORTER: Kathleen was the last person that I had
signed up. Is there anyone else here.... okay.
Please come forward and give me your name.
TERRY STRLE: My name is Terry Strle and I'm here.
REP. PORTER: Oh.
MS. STRLE: You got me?
REP. PORTER: You were here, but we missed you.
MS. STRLE: I'm here representing the local chapter of
Mother's Against Drunk Driving. I'm the former president of
the local chapter. I'm just here to encourage the
legislature to pass that .08 legislation, HB 61.
It's a good bill, got plenty of (indiscernible) that
shows you're impaired at .08 and it's just like being a
little bit pregnant, you're not a little bit drunk. If
you're impaired, you're impaired. And we fear that what's
going to happen is, there's going to be a crash in the state
where someone's going to be killed and they're going to be
.08 and that's what it's going to take for the legislature
to move.
It happened in New Mexico last year. The legislature
was sitting on the bill and three people were killed on
Christmas Eve and the next year they had the bill and we
don't want that to happen here. We have a law
(indiscernible).
And I'm sure you both know that we had a particulary
bloody year, summer, on the highways here. Some of them
were alcohol related, some of then weren't, but we need to
send a strong message to these drivers that we're not going
to tolerate (indiscernible) behind the wheel when you're
drunk.
From a victim's point of view, my brother was hit by a
drunk driver three years ago in Southern Illinois where he
was riding his bike and he was hit by a truck. So, if
you're talking about degrees of impairment, and that's what
everybody gets into, you know, everybody knows you can
(indiscernible) anyway you want to do it.
But he was on the shoulder of the road when he was hit
from the rear by a pick up truck. So, if you're a little
bit drunk that's not a very big margin to get hit with.
So, I think that it's a good law and it's an important
law and we need to pass it here. And I don't feel like we
can afford to (indiscernible).
So, that's where I'm at. And thanks so much for
letting us talk with you.
REP. PORTER: You bet. Representative Jim
(indiscernible) on task force, he's a sponsor of
(indiscernible)....
Now, is there anyone else that we have... we do have
Darlene Brown?
Please come forward.
DARLENE BROWN: Actually I would like to see whatever
you call (indiscernible) Fairbanks....
I think it's good to have somebody here. I would also
like to see all of the laws that are (indiscernible)... for
everybody the same. The law should apply to everybody
exactly the same.
I really do think there should be somebody here for a
town this size and the amount of liquor established. And I
am a bar owner. But I do believe there should be somebody
here. (Indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: We were made aware of the fact
(indiscernible) foreign investigators for ABC for
infractions to do investigations. Do you know if any of
those people are located up here in Fairbanks?
MR. BROWN: No. None.
REP. PORTER: None of the investigators....?
MS. BROWN: I do believe that there actually should be
for a population this size and as many liquor licenses there
are, a lot of people have question. Some people do things
because they don't want to call Anchorage or find out what
(indiscernible).
REP. PORTER: I was making certain that that was your
impression.
Now is there anyone else here?
Yes?
JOHN BAERTSCHY: My name is John Baertschy. I am the
director of the Interior and Northern Regional Training
Office, which.....
REP. PORTER: Could you spell you name, sir?
MR. BAERTSCHY: Yes. B-A-E-R-T-S-C-H-Y
In this access the staff development and training
center for the interior and northern half of the state. I
service Fairbanks, Fort Yukon, Tok, Barrow, Kotzebue, Nome
and Copper Center.
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